Entry into Marshal hold caseIII CV1

[maxTRX]

For GB, Lex, Creepy or anyone in the know:

 

How do you enter the marshal hold? In a group I flew with (Rhino sim) we usually had a live controller during ops who basically had 5 or 6 different roles during a mission:lol:

 

The procedure we followed during RTB went roughly like this:

Flying at pre-briefed altitudes in sections, contacted marshal at around 50 or 60 nm, got our clearances and immediately started descending to assigned altitudes (still in formation) and pointing at the marshal fix. Once -2 hit his assigned altitude he would level off and continue toward the fix. The lead who was assigned a 1k below would continue down to his altitude.

 

Now, entering the marshal fix we would follow 'civie' procedures... mostly direct entry, sometimes parallel or even teardrop and hold. We sort of had a crutch how to aim at the fix;)

 

How do you guys do this, especially entry part?

[G B]

For GB, Lex, Creepy or anyone in the know:

 

How do you enter the marshal hold? In a group I flew with (Rhino sim) we usually had a live controller during ops who basically had 5 or 6 different roles during a mission:lol:

 

The procedure we followed during RTB went roughly like this:

Flying at pre-briefed altitudes in sections, contacted marshal at around 50 or 60 nm, got our clearances and immediately started descending to assigned altitudes (still in formation) and pointing at the marshal fix. Once -2 hit his assigned altitude he would level off and continue toward the fix. The lead who was assigned a 1k below would continue down to his altitude.

 

Now, entering the marshal fix we would follow 'civie' procedures... mostly direct entry, sometimes parallel or even teardrop and hold. We sort of had a crutch how to aim at the fix;)

 

How do you guys do this, especially entry part?

 

Not a bad start. Typically you’ll request whoever has less gas to go the lower altitude, not necessarily the flight lead. There are no altitude changes without Marshal approval within 30 degrees of the “hot side” of the marshal radial, or 10 degrees of the “cold side.” Since standard holding in Marshal is to the left, the holding side is the hot side. Once you are on your altitude, you are cleared weird. Intercept whatever profile you use to manage timing. No requirement for teardrop or parallel or anything like that. You could do figure 8s, skywriting, or draw phallic objects with your exhaust for all anyone cares, so long as you are on your altitude. You don’t have to go direct to the fix itself, unless you’re heading there for your actual commence.

[maxTRX]

Not a bad start. Typically you’ll request whoever has less gas to go the lower altitude, not necessarily the flight lead. There are no altitude changes without Marshal approval within 30 degrees of the “hot side” of the marshal radial, or 10 degrees of the “cold side.” Since standard holding in Marshal is to the left, the holding side is the hot side. Once you are on your altitude, you are cleared weird. Intercept whatever profile you use to manage timing. No requirement for teardrop or parallel or anything like that. You could do figure 8s, skywriting, or draw phallic objects with your exhaust for all anyone cares, so long as you are on your altitude. You don’t have to go direct to the fix itself, unless you’re heading there for your actual commence.

 

Sounds good, thanks.

Hey, I remember someone from Whidbey already got that 'skywriting' idea a while back:lol:

[hein22]

Hey, nice thread. So there is no actual requirement for entry? No teardrop, no parallel. no direct or anything? And we don't even have to go to the fix? So I can intercept radial at any distance and then head towards the fix in any way I want? Thanks.

[G B]

Hey, nice thread. So there is no actual requirement for entry? No teardrop, no parallel. no direct or anything? And we don't even have to go to the fix? So I can intercept radial at any distance and then head towards the fix in any way I want? Thanks.

 

Yes.

[Phantom453]

I need a diagrams please. :huh:

 

Management of multiple aircraft in a stack, especially with multiple flights, is the bit that confuses me the most. I still haven't got this clear in my head how the whole process works.

[norman99]

 

I can't take credit for the image, but I hope this helps.

Edited May 20, 2020 by norman99

[G B]

I need a diagrams please. :huh:

 

Management of multiple aircraft in a stack, especially with multiple flights, is the bit that confuses me the most. I still haven't got this clear in my head how the whole process works.

 

 

You don't have to manage multiple aircraft in a stack. The most aircraft in a formation that will check in with Marshal (for Case 3) is 2. If you were previously a flight of 4, make sure you split before checking in with Marshal.

 

 

You will check in as the side number of whoever you want to land first, regardless of whether or not that is your side number in the formation. Generally, whoever has the lowest fuel is the one you want to land first. For example, if you were 306, and your wingman was 300, and you wanted your wingman to land first, you would say "Marshal, 300, holding hands with 306, marking mom's...."

 

 

 

Marshal will pass Marshal instructions to 300 first in that example, and after a correct readback by your wingman (again, in this example), Marshal will immediately begin to give instructions to 306, which then you will readback. Since 300 got instructions first, 300 will be assigned a lower altitude, and thus commence first and land first.

 

 

You each will be assigned individual altitudes in your instructions. In fact, every single airplane in the recovery has their own altitude (as opposed to Case 2 where you could have up to a flight of 2 holding together). *Once your formation has split, there is no longer any management of any airplane other than your own.*

Edited May 20, 2020 by G B

[=4c=Nikola]

@G B, how high stack can get? Is there ever need for catc to lower aircraft already in stack to make space for new arrivals?

Edited May 20, 2020 by =4c=Nikola

[G B]

@G B, how high stack can get? Is there ever need for catc to lower aircraft already in stack to make space for new arrivals?

 

 

The stack's lowest altitude is 6000 feet.

 

 

 

The stack can get as high as it needs to be. However, if there is a very large recovery, Marshal will actually use two marshal radials. Each will be offset the same number of degrees away from the final bearing, just in opposite directions (so it will look symmetric).

 

 

This doesn't happen very often, and is beyond the scope of this discussion. It's just a fun fact. *The answer to your question is: the stack is built from 6000 feet at the bottom and then goes as high as it needs to.*

[Phantom453]

 

I can't take credit for the image, but I hope this helps.

 

Thank you for your help! :thumbup:

 

Much appreciated.

[Phantom453]

You don't have to manage multiple aircraft in a stack. The most aircraft in a formation that will check in with Marshal (for Case 3) is 2. If you were previously a flight of 4, make sure you split before checking in with Marshal.

 

 

You will check in as the side number of whoever you want to land first, regardless of whether or not that is your side number in the formation. Generally, whoever has the lowest fuel is the one you want to land first. For example, if you were 306, and your wingman was 300, and you wanted your wingman to land first, you would say "Marshal, 300, holding hands with 306, marking mom's...."

 

 

 

Marshal will pass Marshal instructions to 300 first in that example, and after a correct readback by your wingman (again, in this example), Marshal will immediately begin to give instructions to 306, which then you will readback. Since 300 got instructions first, 300 will be assigned a lower altitude, and thus commence first and land first.

 

 

You each will be assigned individual altitudes in your instructions. In fact, every single airplane in the recovery has their own altitude (as opposed to Case 2 where you could have up to a flight of 2 holding together). *Once your formation has split, there is no longer any management of any airplane other than your own.*

 

Thanks very much for that G B :thumbup: