Chinese assets and missiles

[Khegrow]

Can somebody please have a look into how the chinese stuff provided/modified by Deka is modelled?

 

Our squadron did a mission with mostly/only chinese AI.

 

 

1) Chinese missiles (HHQ9) fired from Type 052B/C Destroyers and the 054A Frigate don't bleed their energy the same way as other missiles when at max range.

They start out with Mach 4 and self destruct/despawn when reaching their maximum range at Mach 2 (!!).

They are shot at targets even when outside their threat circle.

 

2) Chinese missiles HHQ16 are always fired in pairs (When defending against Harpoons for example) and have a next to 100% hit percentage. (regardless of skill)

Also they don't bleed energy to zero. They self destruct/despawn at Mach 1.8 (!!).

 

SO either their range or the energy-retention is questionable.

Compare that to a RIM-66 (Blue missile) which will bleed out to Mach 0.8.

Russian S-10s launch at Mach4 and bleed out to 0.3 before despawning/self-destructing at max range.

 

The reload-time on the ships is "amazing" they can spit out a constant stream of SAMs until depleted..

 

I am no expert in ships but just by comparing them to other ships (blues..) I'd say they're off..

Seeing launchers on the decks made for 2-4-8 being INSTANTLY reloaded is strange.

 

 

Some more tests: (Conducted by Wolve)

 

Test 1 ... 054A against 3 Hornets (12 Harpoons) ... all missiles intercepted

Test 2 ... 054A against 3 Tu-22M3s (6 KITCHENS!) ... 4 missiles intercepted. The 2 which survived, sunk the ship (1 missile took the health down to ~20%)

Test 3 ... 054A against 3 Tu-142s (18 Kh-35s) ... 13 missiles intercepted. The remaining 5 sunk the ship.

Test 4 ... 054A against 6 Hornets (24 Harpoons) ... 23 missiles intercepted. The one that hit, caused minor damage. (The Hornet wingmen dropped their missiles after the first wave was done)

 

Interesting observations

1. It (destroyer) fired on the Kh-22s before they were in the engagement range circle!

2. AI fires the Harpoons and they go sea skimming directly! (I will test if we humans can do that too)

3. HQ-16s seem to be TVM in terminal but the ship only seems to engage in one direction at a time.

 

The 054A was "Average" while attackers were all "High"

 

Cheers Khegrow

Edited June 9, 2020 by Khegrow
typo

[Khegrow]

Quick update on the ships:

 

I was testing AI vs. AI fights and it seems like chinese ships Type052C destroyers wont go below 80% of health.

All subsequent Harpoon hits (fired by High to excellent skilled Blue ships ) will explode behind the ship. One can see the whole explosion is off-center of the ship (behind it) and will not damage it any further.

 

I will enclose screenshots.

 

The Setup

 

 

The damaged Type052C destroyer and incoming HARPOONS

 

 

 

On the following screens note that the ship is being shot from the top-left corner and the explosion in the water is OFF-center of the ship.

 

 

The remaining two I turned the cam to the aft of the ship. The missiles attack from the LEFT side and will explode on the RIGHT side in the water.

 

 

 

While typing this message the ship was attacked by more harpoons each going through and hitting the water on the other side.

 

Cheers

 

Khegrow

Edited June 9, 2020 by Khegrow
added screenshots

[BIGNEWY]

Quick update:

apparently blues will defend when you specify Engage Air weapons..

ROE=Weapons free is NOT sufficent.

 

 

Now to the Ships again.

I was testing AI to AI fights and it seems like chinese ships Type052C destroyers wont go below 80% of health.

All subsequent Harpoon hits (fired by High to excellent skilled Blue ships ) will explode behind the ship. One can see the whole explosion is off-center of the ship (behind it) and will not damage it any further.

 

I will enclose screenshots.

 

Hi

 

if you have a track replay showing this it would be better, we can take a look and report if necessary

 

thanks

[Khegrow]

@Bignewy thanks for your reply.

 

I've uploaded the track. (in spoiler)

 

 

https://black-crusade.de/dcs-bugs/deka_destroyers_indestructible.trk

 

 

 

 

There's multiple of these destroyers but you can check the ones being attacked.

 

one is located at Harvadarya (DQ20).

The other is located in the east (DQ94)

Edited June 10, 2020 by Khegrow

[BIGNEWY]

Thanks, but the link is not working for me

 

you can attach using the forum attach if you wish

 

thanks

[Khegrow]

Sorry for the broken link.. *clueless

 

Have attached it now.

 

Cheers Khegrow

deka_destroyers_indestructible.trk

[Grimes]

That track is not very helpful. When testing stuff like this just make a new mission with the ships in question. AI and scripting doing anything not related to firing at the target ship is pointless to showing the bug in action.

 

I know there is a reported bug regarding AI launched Harpoon, especially the older AGM-84A and the ship launched one missing targets slightly. Would have to check the new Harpoon and other ASMs. The visual splash you see doesn't always represent the damage done, gotta watch the missile and see if it fully impacted the ship or not. But it is easy enough to check the damage done.

 

 

 

By the way, ships don't reload at all, but they do have generally a large amount of missiles stored and can launch freely at targets. With their radar systems tracking multiple targets isn't really an issue for some of them so it can lead to spamming. For instance the 54A has 32 HHQ-16 missiles, 52B/C has 48 HHQ-9 missiles, and the Tico has 90 SM-2 missiles.

[Khegrow]

Sorry if the track wasn't good.

Regardless of the scripting the damage should be applied and setting this up for "beta-test" is easily done, so here we go..

 

Setup:

Oliver Hazzard Perry Class

USS Arleigh Burke

Ticonderoga

Skill: Excellent

ROE: Weapons Free

Air Weapons engage: on

Alarm state red, Skill

 

vs.

 

Type 52C destroyer

Skill: Excellent

ROE: Weapons Free

Air Weapons engage: on

Alarm state red, Skill

 

Result:

Both "fleets" engage ONLY if closer than 25nm (so much for long range missiles..).

After a while the red-ships SAMs are depleted and the Harpoons begin to hit..

After the red ships takes roughly 20% damage.. any subsequent hits are ignored and the red ship is invincible.

 

Desc:

red_wont_die -> 1:1

lets_do_some_betatest (both tracks) -> 3:1 as above

red_wont_die.trk

lets_do_some_betatest2.trk

lets_do_some_betatest.trk

Edited June 11, 2020 by Khegrow
added another track

[Khegrow]

Here you go again... just in case ...

 

Made on last build: 2.5.6.50793

 

All missiles hit.. and no damage after first 20%.

 

Cheers Khegrow

lets_do_some_betatest3_build_2_5__50793.trk

[Grimes]

Reported. Once it hits 2300 HP remaining the 52C takes fractions of damage per hit.

 

The engagement range is due to needing other sources to detect the ships over the horizon. Typically you can assign an attack group task or place an AWACS which communicates with the ships, thus allowing for the long range surface to surface missiles actually be long ranged.

 

The need for a different track was more about isolating the issue for the sake of visibility. If a behavior occurs the same way when you have 4 units in a mission as it does 400, then there would be no harm in posted tracks/missions with just the 4 units. Most of the time I remake the setup to test anyway, but there is always a chance that my setup doesn't match the users. So that also plays a factor, I'd rather dig through a mission with as little code as possible to see what was different.

[nighthawk2174]

1) Chinese missiles (HHQ9) fired from Type 052B/C Destroyers and the 054A Frigate don't bleed their energy the same way as other missiles when at max range.

[/Quote]

Well yeah just about every SAM in the game has way too much drag just reference the new 120 model. Or this post: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=248394

They start out with Mach 4 and self destruct/despawn when reaching their maximum range at Mach 2 (!!).

[/Quote]

Well yeah if a missile like the HHQ9 goes for a high alt intercept it may still be supersonic when other factors like battery life or hydraulics render the missile inert. Reference above SA10 flyout charts.

 

They are shot at targets even when outside their threat circle.

[/Quote]

Well, a) those may not be accurate and b) its not the only one if you are flying fast towards the target they can launch while your still out of Rmax but by the time the missile gets to you you are inside of that Rmax circle.

 

2) Chinese missiles HHQ16 are always fired in pairs (When defending against Harpoons for example) and have a next to 100% hit percentage. (regardless of skill)

Also they don't bleed energy to zero. They self destruct/despawn at Mach 1.8 (!!).

[/Quote]

Isn't it SOP in general to fire two missiles at a target to try and ensure a hit irl?

SO either their range or the energy-retention is questionable.

Compare that to a RIM-66 (Blue missile) which will bleed out to Mach 0.8.

[/Quote]

- Ehh gotta wait for a drag rework on this missile I'm very suscpicios of it drag, it doesn't even have a drag curve defined in the code.

Russian S-10s launch at Mach4 and bleed out to 0.3 before despawning/self-destructing at max range.

[/Quote]

Reference above post they have about half the range they should

The reload-time on the ships is "amazing" they can spit out a constant stream of SAMs until depleted..

[/Quote]

I just checked reload time is set too 1,000,000 seconds for restocking missiles.

[Khegrow]

@Nighthawk: I was mostly comparing it to the performance of the S300 (on which the chinese missiles are based on) and therefore was amazed that they perform way different.(Short: like on steroids... )

 

 

 

@Grimes thanks for the explanation and for reporting.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Khegrow

[nighthawk2174]

Yeah the performance of the S300 in game is not right and well we'll see how many years it takes to get fixed.