MISSION 3

[Endy]

@ Ribis

 

Be advised, we are only using semi active radar missiles and short range heaters in the campaign. No Aim120 on F15s or R77 on Migs, also no R27ET. So pretty much only using Aim7 and Aim9 for F15 and R27ER and R73 for the russians.

Just for your information since you're new :)

[33rd_Havoc]

Hey Greg, there is a little mistake in the blue side briefing, i think.

Hawg Flight should engage support facilites, but in the waypointpicture there is a russ. HQ.

Task from colt flight is to engage russ. HQ and in this waypoint picture there is a warehouse instead of a HQ.

 

So my question is which flight had to engage the HQ?

[gregzagk]

Yes man you are right!

The maps and waypoints are right for the packages. But the description of HAWG and COLT packages are wrong.

 

It should be like this :

 

HAWG

a) Spot and destroy enemy HQ facilities at wp6

 

Colt

a)Destroy enemy support facilities at WP 6.

 

Thanks for noticing and sorry for the inconvenience ;)

I am uploading the right one.

[33rd_Havoc]

Copy, thank you for the quick response.

[Daryl1586]

Please can I take a slot in Chevy 1 as Blue Ka-50 :)

[gregzagk]

Done :)

[Supersheep]

A-10C, blue, please.

[Leto]

@ Greg: have you sorted out the problem with AGM-65? Can we load more than one Mav on a rack?

[Endy]

I think it's a bug, not something Greg did wrong.

 

But anyway, I would think about limiting the number of Mavericks a bit anyway. At the current number of A10's imagine what would happen if all of them had at least 6 mavs each. That's 60 tanks gone in several seconds, land, rearm, rinse repeat. Not to mention the standoff capabilities, which with current level of AA defences is a bit too good.

 

I would argue that since we're using sort of 80s loadout for F15 and Migs (no active radar missiles for either side), then we should seriously limit Mavs too. The A-A combat was not the only reason for removing these missiles. I guess A10 pilots would not be happy if they were getting shot from a long range in TWS radar mode which would give you no indication you're getting locked and shot at and only a very late warning when the missile radar goes active.

[Endy]

Fighter pilots sort of expect that so they shoot and run away and repeat until one side is dead, but A10 pilots would not even be aware of what's going on making them an even easier prey than they are now.

 

Anyway, this is up for discussion, but I would argue against giving too powerful A-G weapons to A10's, Su25T or KA-50 (I don't know much about the latter so someone would have to say what they think is op there) for the sake of the missions being more interesting this way (exactly the same reason why CBU's have to be banned). Less easy tank kills, and less easy AA kills.

 

Unless of course we agree to introducing a lot of SAM systems on the map, both radar and IR, making A10's job more difficult and Mavs would really become necessary then. Of course this is escalating it further and is not really easy to balance and make it challenging but still fun for everyone.

[Leto]

Good idea, Endy! Let's ban CBU's (not only 87 because of fps hit but also 97 because they are effective), let's ban Mav's and while we are in the mood let's ban also the GAU/8 and TGP. I am sure you will find a reason for that.

MK82 only for A10's!

 

Seriously, man... as you stated yourself the A10 is an easy prey for you. Look at the last two missions. It has been like a point and click adventure for red side jets to shoot down A10's. Just with no "adventure" part in it. How much more boring do you want to make it for you? And A10's have hard enough time to get near their target area before Su25 or Su7 or MiG29 jockey kills them. And I don't see any of the A10 guys whining about limiting the other side's AA capability because A10 is not a fancy dogfighter.

 

Given the amount of A10's on blue side on the one hand and what results they achieved on the other, you can't be serious in starting your ban this and ban that concert.

[33rd_Havoc]

Iam not sure if this discussion is going in the right direction. The next missions will show us. But deleting the 10min. penalty rule for FC3 Jets is not a good decision at all.

 

The Mav is an excellent stand off weapon of course, but this is no reason to make a limitation to... lets say 4. One KA-50 is also capable to destroy up to 12 Tanks in a very short time, only with his atgm's. So why all those limitations for air to ground weapons. A whise A-10 Pilot whould never load such a heavy payload in those PvP campain missions because you have no chance to escape quickly. Also the maneuverability at low altitude is horrible.

 

So i say stop making too much limitations and let the pilots take there weapons of choice.

In case of the Cbu-87 it is absolutly ok... nobody whant to see a diashow while flying into war.

[Endy]

Mate, I'm only discussing possibilities. As for your sarcasm about TGP, actually the creator of Bactria mission made one a'la Gulf war which is exactly that. Limited Mavs - i think 2-3 per plane, NO TGP, unguided bombs only - no LGB. That was the standard loadout for CAS then.

But yeah, I just want an open discussion on the subject, no reason to get mad because of my arguments. The mission is constantly being modified, Greg, me and Trooph did a lot of testing to make it more fun. Mind you, we are experimenting all the time and what I think about certain weapon systems may get changed by Greg or the mission will be modified to accomodate those but at the same time something else will change not to make things trivial.

For example, for today's mission we moved fighter bases further away from the AO - it's about 10-12 minute flight now. This makes air superiority much more important and removes "air Quake" and constant dogfighting aspect.

[Endy]

So we are making this easier for A-G aircraft provided their air cover does well. Also notice there's probably going to be at least 4 fighters per side, so AA battles will be much more influential this time. If it proves unbalanced that might get changed in the next mission. This comes at a cost of a bit more boring gameplay for FC3 guys but we did it to protect A-G aircraft and choppers and we think it will make it more fun for them.

If F15s wipe us out in the first engagement you'll have several minutes to complete your attacks on your objectives or armor columns, after that you can run away again under SAM cover at your base and rearm. Then you just wait for the outcome of next AA battle and go in again. Makes it more real and wll not have you constantly under threat if your sides gains superiority and you watch your RWR and spot incoming fighters.

[Endy]

I am trying to make different suggestions and influence the mission to be fun for everyone, I hope you understand that. CBU's for example are banned in pretty much every serious MP mission due to fps effect on the server and the fact that one bomb, if aimed well, can take out a whole squad of tanks. Given the number of units on the map, in two hours you could probably wipe everything clean... So that's a double argument against their use in a mission. Same goes for other powerful standoff weapons.

As for Mavs, sure, we can have some, but not 6 per plane. If it was so, A10's would wipe out the whole russian attacking force quite easily. Please bear in mind we can't have 300 units attacking and 300 defending as that would probably make the server unplayable. Hence we need to limit the A-G capabilities or the ground forces won't make any sense. With unguided bombs you can do a lot of damage to such a column as well, but it requires some more effort and you can't do it from 7 miles away.

[Endy]

Mind you, there are no SAM systems on the map like SA-8, 9 or 19 for example. Also no long range SAMs like SA10 or 11. Pretty much all there is are shorter range AA, ZSU's and Manpads, but that comes at a cost to planes' loadout.

I would like to hear your and other pilots' opinion on that. Whether there should be more SAM's or not. Whether there should be more standoff munitions or not - and say why you think so. Then how do you suggest to balance the gameplay between ground, A-A and A-G etc.

Also, please understand I am not writing this as a SU-27 pilot but as someone who wants to get the mission better for every player, and will argue to modify it accordingly. I am not the original mission maker and don't make final decisions though I had some hand in testing and I can tell you I'm trying a lot of different things in the mission and I'm also trying to see everyone's point of view here and give advice on how to improve the scenario.

[Endy]

Sorry for the rant but there was a lot of it. I'd like to hear about your ideas and I just hope we can make the missions more fun for everyone :)

 

PS. I am not strictly opposed to having 6 mavericks per plane. We can see what happens I guess. If you guys think it's ok then it's ok. We can review the mission afterwards and modify accordingly. Though in this case, what do you guys think about more SAM systems on the map. Will that make it too difficult for A10's or the choppers or will it provide some good challenge and targets?

[33rd_Havoc]

Thumbs up for you Endy to think about, how can we make the campain more interesting and balanced.

 

But at all there is too much theoretical crafting in your mind. If you take a close look at the tacview files from the first 2 missions than you will see that the A-10 is much less effectiv when enemy planes are in the op area. And this is absolutly okay.

The campain is already on a good way, please stop changing too much things at one time.

Often those things do more damage to the gameplay than it helps.

[Endy]

Ok, no problem, you might be right about changing too many things at once :) I guess we can check the tacview after the mission and see if the mavericks were overpowered or not, and change accordingly.

 

By the way, like I mentioned, there will be changes today how fighters function so I hope the air balance will be okay today with the changed number of fighters, airbases being further away etc. (this is also to accomodate for removing 10 minute startup penalty which wasn't really realistic nor could be enforced in any way).

 

And guys, this is just the third time the mission takes place so if something is wrong, balance is screwed etc, just write about it afterwards so we can all work to make it better.

[gregzagk]

Hello guys .Just returned from work.

It seems that there is a bug about the Mavericks so the A-10's default loadout will be 2x mavericks & 6x LGB's .But you are free to change them of course.

 

We may not have a lot experience in DCS mission design but we have a lot of experience in organising events in Falcon so we know that a nice mission with less rules is the best for everyone. The pilots must have the chance to focus on their flight and have fun and no mess up with a lot of rules.

So the only rule that was deleted was the waiting for the FC3 pilots inside the cockpit for 10 minutes but that got balanced by moving the aircraft to airbases far from the front :) So the result is the same.

 

I believe CBU's should not been banned if they are ok with the fps performance. But if I would fly with a A-10 I wouldn't load them cause there is some wind in the mission and if the ground commanders move smart their tanks the CBU's would fail to hit any targets :)

[gregzagk]

So as you already noticed in the first two missions, we prefer not to have exact balance in numbers between the two sides but we prefer having a challengin mission for both sides with some changes in the scenarios and trying to have fun :) Maybe sometimes a side will have to deal with more difficult scenarios and maybe the next mission the other side will have to deal with even more difficult.

 

I think we will be ok.If anyone will notice something that he dont like we can of course talk about it as we already did with the last 2 missions.

 

Cheers!

[Leto]

That's exactly the point. I would ask you to change things and restrict loadout if it turned out they did not work as intendet but not on biased and unrealistic assumptions in advance.

 

Thanks Greg for making that clear.

[Endy]

Actually Greg I just checked. If you choose one of the default loadouts for the A10, not try to create a custom one, you can have more than 2 Mavs.

You can choose as default one of the loadouts with 3 or 6 Mavs and let the A10 guys decide what to switch before the start, problem fixed.

 

@Leto - I was discussing the issue of weapons in a normal fashion from the perspective of mission balance and fps and you try to attack me with arguments I don't appreciate. If you have something valuable to say about the mission loadouts and its estimated effect on the mission please do but don't behave like a child whose toys are being taken away from him. I think that the ability to destroy 60 tanks in under a minute is a bit overpowered considering that's most of the russian attacking force, so please think first about the effect of certain loadouts and not cry outrage.Thanks!

[Leto]

Endy, neither I cry nor I do behave like a child. On the contrary.

 

And where is the attack on you "with arguments you don't appreciate" ?

 

I ask to fix a problem when it appears and not on biased assumptions in advance which you did. "60 tanks in under one minute" ...please

[Endy]

Ok, let's discuss again shall we? :)

My way of thinking is as follows:

- you wait for F15s to get air superiority - I assume you will eventually

- you take off, assume proper targets each

- since each A10 has now 6 mavericks that means you can kill 6 tanks/armored vehicles each

- times 10 A10 means you have ability to destroy 60 vehicles from standoff range very easily

- since the tanks usually move in columns, when you have one targeted you can destroy all of it in one pass, takes several seconds for one plane

- if you split the planes properly between targets you can attack and destroy a few columns at the same time

- since total attacking armor strength is around that number you have a theoretical (of course depens a bit on other factors, means it will be more spread in time in reality) ability to destroy the majority of red force in one go

- there are no proper SAM systems around so once your side gains upper hand in the air you've free reign for ground attacks for several minutes