Damage model - new factors

[Bucic]

Have ED considered including new factors to the damage model?

 

1. Creation of joints mostly during bending momentum related damage. http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2WE63P7Q3Q&feature=related

 

2. Progressive damage:

 

a) loosed part of ac body can damage it further due to aerodynamic effects (speed related). It could shred the supersonic flying jet in fractions of secconds or take some time for slower ac's.

 

b) loss of inertia momentum balance in case of rotating parts. This would be specially interesting regarding helicopters' rotors.

 

3. Current stress state - an object at its structural limits (i.e. fighter during 9 G turn) should be more vulnerable.

 

4. At least simplified visualisation of cockpit damage (windshield).

 

5. Other factors...

 

 

I realise that some similar things are already implemented. For example flying with engine on fire for half an hour is no longer possible (in Flaming Cliffs for sure).

[EvilBivol-1]

Hmm, maybe Yo-Yo can help... AFAIK, Points 1, 2 and 3 are already implemented in Flaming Cliffs and also in Black Shark, although the depth and detail can always improve. #4 has not been implemented, but is possible in the future. For 5, I would cite the more detailed models of the fuel, engine and other sub-systems which come with their own, more detailed damage model. Damage to one system may naturally (i.e. not through a script) lead to damage in another system.

[Bucic]

Points 1, 2 and 3 are already implemented in Flaming Cliffs and also in Black Shark. #4 has not been implemented, but is possible in the future. For 5, I would cite the more detailed models of the fuel, engine and other sub-systems which come with their own, more detailed damage model. Damage to one system may naturally (i.e. not through a script) lead to damage in another system.

 

I've never spotted the #1 in the Flaming Cliffs :huh: It looked to me that part can disintegrate or not - nothing in between (as joint). I wish I could check it now but I don't have LO installed.

 

Nice resource on the topic (LO FC footage) http://youtube.com/watch?v=8ybEiVFNLJM :) And this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=HuyK2QINah0 for midair collisions.

 

As for ground units damage model - what do you think of that?

Also what comes in mind is Crazy House's T-72 Balkans On Fire damage model. I played it for few days just for the damage model. Ability to toggle hit vectors ingame was very cool feature.

[GGTharos]

Realize that all of this costs CPU time. :)

A balance between 'good enough' and 'too much' damage modeling needs to happen, both in terms of time spent in implementation, and CPU time - especially when it comes to AI. Not to say it isn't neat.

[Avimimus]

How is 1 modeled? In FC the distribution of mass changes as parts are lost, but I believe the question was actually aimed at partially broken off parts, warping of parts, denting of the fuselage etc.

 

I personally agree that rebuilding damage models to incorporate this feature is too much work (and they would have to be rebuilt).

 

On the other hand one could do the following for vehicles without modifying the existing models or adding much to the game's code:

- have smoke pour out from where the engine is located indicating engine damage

- have the cargo on a truck catch fire (with the driver ignoring it and keeping moving)

- have the crew abandon the vehicle (with smoke coming out of the open hatch)

- have the turret jam at a specific angle and be unable to move

- depress part of a wheeled vehicle so that the lower section of a wheel is below the terrain (indicating a blown tire)

- spawn a 3d model for a length of tread behind one of the tracks (the tank would still have a full tread on it, so there would now be two treads - but who would really care? In combat you would barely have time to note the length of tread behind the vehicle and figure out the critical fact that it is now immobile)"

 

By the way, can impacts impart kinetic energy (ie. cause vibration, knock the nose of the aircraft off-course etc.)?

[Bucic]

Realize that all of this costs CPU time. :)

I do realize but I'm sure theres many quite rich people out there;) Seriously - make it an option and voila ;) You can even replace the civil traffic with it :P

A balance between 'good enough' and 'too much' damage modeling needs to happen, both in terms of time spent in implementation, and CPU time - especially when it comes to AI. Not to say it isn't neat.

I know I know. But what I don't know is how much you can push it forward due to constant CPU technology progress. Ofcourse there's no point going into sophisticated damage modeling without converting DCS code to support dual+ core processors. Current lack of such support is rather antique. I bet you know what should come first but there are things like cockpit damage visualisation that are needed and don't require a code revolution.

 

And I'm still not convinced about #1 being implemented in FC :shifty:

By the way, can impacts impart kinetic energy (ie. cause vibration, knock the nose of the aircraft off-course etc.)?

 

I think it can. Su-25T hitting a building with one wingtip is submited to related momentum. Also there are some noticable vibrations during gun hits. The second one ofcourse can be scripted though.

[EvilBivol-1]

And I'm still not convinced about #1 being implemented in FC :shifty:

Ah, I might've underestimated what you were asking. I thought you meant simply the "division" of the model into jointed parts that would be the point of break upon stress (as seen in the MiG-29 video). In FC (and BS), the model does indeed have "joints" that will break upon stress in that particular area, usually after a direct impact. In FC, for example, the wings could break off under a high-G load, although it's possible that effect was scripted.

 

It's difficult for me to answer beyond this, but I know that, for example, in FC you can actually damage the ailerons actuators. You will not see it outside, but the model will calculate this and you will no longer be able to operate that aileron. Another example is leaking hydraulics, where damage will set in slowly as you lose hydraulic pressure and have less and less power over the control surfaces.

[EvilBivol-1]

As for ground units damage model - what do you think of that?

ED is making some steps in this direction also in Black Shark, but for now it is still a fairly rudimentary life-bar system, where depending on what hits the vehicle where, more or less damage will be caused until it finally dies. I think we can expect more advanced ground unit damage and AI in general as DCS moves forward with the A-10, Apache and beyond.

[GGTharos]

I do realize but I'm sure theres many quite rich people out there;) Seriously - make it an option and voila ;) You can even replace the civil traffic with it :P

 

I know I know. But what I don't know is how much you can push it forward due to constant CPU technology progress. Ofcourse there's no point going into sophisticated damage modeling without converting DCS code to support dual+ core processors. Current lack of such support is rather antique. I bet you know what should come first but there are things like cockpit damage visualisation that are needed and don't require a code revolution.

 

 

That's certainly unfair ... how many flight sims out there do you see that support multiple processors? ;) DCS will gain that ability eventually, but not with Black Shark. As for cockpit DM, I agree, there should be some, but this can in fact be difficult to implement beyond rudimentary effects.

 

And I'm still not convinced about #1 being implemented in FC :shifty:

 

You're asking for too much here, though I'd like to see such things myself :D

 

I think it can. Su-25T hitting a building with one wingtip is submited to related momentum. Also there are some noticable vibrations during gun hits. The second one ofcourse can be scripted though.

 

 

Quite right.

[Bucic]

EvilBivol-1, I meant something different. I meant a situation where i.e. fuselage brakes almost in half but still few structural, electrical or hydraulic instalation elements keep the two parts together so it makes kind of blockhead. This is why I deliberately didn't post a link to a movie where aircraft just falls apart into pieces each flying on its own. I meant exactly what the movie shows.

 

GG Tharos:

That's certainly unfair ... how many flight sims out there do you see that support multiple processors? ;) DCS will gain that ability eventually, but not with Black Shark.

I bumped on two simulators recently developed and both have dual core support. That's Flacon 4.0 Allied Force and Armed Assault. Let's assume ArmA is sim. Generaly I mean rather ambitious games. But why look at others anyway. When dual cores are in service quite some time already it seems rather unreasonable not to inlcude dual core support. I hope you do understand that I would push the subject that hard if we were talking about Tetris here ;) Let's leave it. After a year or two DCS will transform from antique to modern :)

As for cockpit DM, I agree, there should be some, but this can in fact be difficult to implement beyond rudimentary effects.

Make it robust then :) For now... Some things in LO like this and jet engine nozzles animation for example just scream to be taken care of.

You're asking for too much here, though I'd like to see such things myself :D

See? :D

[EvilBivol-1]

EvilBivol-1, I meant something different. I meant a situation where i.e. fuselage brakes almost in half but still few structural, electrical or hydraulic instalation elements keep the two parts together so it makes kind of blockhead. This is why I deliberately didn't post a link to a movie where aircraft just falls apart into pieces each flying on its own. I meant exactly what the movie shows.

I see, thanks for the clarification. Unless somebody from ED will say more specifically, all we can say for now is "maybe in the future."

[Bucic]

I see, thanks for the clarification. Unless somebody from ED will say more specifically, all we can say for now is "maybe in the future."

 

I understand. Thanks. Well, call me twisted but I'm eager to see something like this working even If it would never be included in the actual simulation.:devil_2:

 

ED is making some steps in this direction also in Black Shark, but for now it is still a fairly rudimentary life-bar system, where depending on what hits the vehicle where, more or less damage will be caused until it finally dies. I think we can expect more advanced ground unit damage and AI in general as DCS moves forward with the A-10, Apache and beyond.

I'm glad to hear this. As we discuss here I think that programing experience and efficient CPU cost estimation 'on the fly' comes pretty handy during a design of such things.

[plane00]

I also hope..

 

I also hope more accurate damage modelling of All units.

OR I hope enough effectiveness of real combat balance...

[Haukka81]

BUMB for this.