Unlimited Fuel and Ammo change proposal

[DimSim]

The unlimited fuel and ammunition settings are undoubtedly useful for simulation and training assistance.

 

Unfortunately they have a frustrating flaw... they fix the weight of the aircraft throughout the flight.

With unlimited fuel, it is impossible to dump fuel or consume it in any way except jettisoning tanks.
With unlimited ammo, a dog fight or landing is always with full loadout.

 

This means a AV-8B Harrier for example, cannot land vertically with full load of fuel and weapons.
The work around of refueling at mission start to reduce fuel load is neither complete nor practical.

 

I propose a change, where the player can select WHEN/IF to re-arm or re-fuel during flight instead of it being always and all the time. At the very simplest, a way to turn off the feature in flight would be helpful.

 

The interface and implementation details can be left to the smart developers, but I'm sure you now understand the issue.

[Warmbrak]

I would be disappointed if the devs allocated time away from more important tasks to enhance a cheat mechanic that has very little use in the greater scheme of things. For realistic weights for landings, just turn the cheats off for that mission; no need to do it all in one mission.

[Johnny Dioxin]

I don't think you understand why it's there or what it's used for. It isn't a "cheat" it's a training tool. I think DimSim has a valid point - however, after how many years? I can't see ED making a change to it now unless a large amount of the community were unhappy with it and if that was the case we'd have had umpteen posts about it before now.

 

 

[Fri13]

35 minutes ago, Warmbrak said:

I would be disappointed if the devs allocated time away from more important tasks to enhance a cheat mechanic that has very little use in the greater scheme of things. For realistic weights for landings, just turn the cheats off for that mission; no need to do it all in one mission.

 

You are missing the point.....

 

 

 

[Fri13]

51 minutes ago, DimSim said:

I propose a change, where the player can select WHEN/IF to re-arm or re-fuel during flight instead of it being always and all the time. At the very simplest, a way to turn off the feature in flight would be helpful.

 

New settings are required from current "Unlimited Fuel" and "Unlimited Weapons" that applies to all units, all the time.

 

• Individual settings for units. Mission designer can select specific group(s) or specific unit(s) and apply to them Unlimited Fuel or Unlimited Weapons capability. This way you can fly with a friend who is terrible with fuel management or doesn't have skills yet for that while you maintain the fuel. This helps in ground units where we could select specific units to have more to shoot than unit itself now has. Like a company level MANPADS anti-air guard can have 20 of them ready to be taken just from near by them, but in game the unit is given just 4 missiles to shoot before empty. This would help to make missions where the expendables are transferred from vehicles to nearby storage for the emergency use.
• We need new "Zero Fuel Consumption" value as well, with above rules. This would allow to activate the mode when fuel is not consumed. Example you ramp the throttle to full mil and you have 184 PPM consumption, now when this mode is active, everything works just like normally but the fuel in tanks is not consumed but stays constantly the same. This is like a "magical air refueling" that keeps fuel count exactly same as long the mode is active. This as well helps in cases where example AI aircraft will need to fly with you in formation and the AI unit can be given unlimited fuel for that time when it is in formation with you, as currently the AI will consume more fuel than you do because different flight modeling and will call bingo way sooner than you do. With this you can take-off with the AI and have it match its fuel level with lead (another feature to "sync fuel count" with X unit). But this as well allows easy debugging and testing for aerodynamic tests where one can set constant fuel amount to exist in the aircraft regardless the fuel consumption. Like have a 2350 kg fuel to test the turn radius, time after time after time, without requiring to restart, refuel etc. Very easy to start checking the FM tables against flight performance when one can have fuel count in control.
• We need rearming option in-air or on-the-ground and only with the activation of the mode (via trigger, button, radio call etc). This allows to example generate a testing scenario where you consume your weapons but you only need to fly 20 km distance over trigger that will rearm you to last selected loadout. Or you can just push a button and replenish the ammunition without automatic mode like it is now. This allows to easy testing for various weight and drag parameters for debugging, training for various loadouts etc.

These belong to same category as "respawn the unit" capability so we can have just a one group with waypoints etc, and once killed, have a timer going that will respawn the unit from the start (or wanted waypoint) and continue from there. These would be perfect "target practice" where we get time after time the targets to respawn after destruction/kill. Example have a own aircraft in a realtime pause where you do not move but you get to train using BVR missiles when you get weapons back when wanted, you get targets to respawn with trigger and testing and training is easier for learning.  Same thing with capability to record own flight by starting a press button and then stopping with same button. And loop this flight as in driving games there is "ghost driver" where you compete against yourself, but now you have AI spawning and vanishing while performing the replay route exactly as is. And you can have multiple ones that you can record while other tracks are playing back. This to be used for formation flight training, for a cinematic videos and just for training in a dog fight against yourself.

[Warmbrak]

2 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

You are missing the point.....

 

 

 

 

I must be then - Since Flanker 1 I have never had the need for unlimited fuel or weapons; I would just restart the mission and do it over again.

[DimSim]

12 hours ago, Warmbrak said:

I would be disappointed if the devs allocated time away from more important tasks to enhance a cheat mechanic that has very little use in the greater scheme of things. For realistic weights for landings, just turn the cheats off for that mission; no need to do it all in one mission.

Like clockwork... I wanted to keep the post positive and avoid near necessary disclaimer for this forum:

 

We know there are players who never use these 'cheat / training / assistance features. They don't want anyone else to either, and most of all they hate the idea that devs could waste time on them. If you don't use these features, this thread is not for you, please discuss features you do use in other threads. EDIT: I do respect your passion for realism and for the product.

 

Thankfully the directors of ED knows their paying customers better:

"The average time a player spends in DCS in one session is 25 minutes" Simon, Global Business Development Director, Eagle Dynamics.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRKL0yZHvwg

 

With limited time, players can take advantage of all these assistance features to train or tailor their experience to meet their needs.

Edited February 1, 2021 by DimSim

[lmp]

10 hours ago, Warmbrak said:

I must be then - Since Flanker 1 I have never had the need for unlimited fuel or weapons; I would just restart the mission and do it over again.

 

The unlimited fuel/weapons options are great for all sorts of tests where you would want to eliminate as many variables as you can. I used it to confirm a flight performance bug (constant weight was important) or to test manual bombing profiles. I'm sure others have their use cases, these are some of mine.

 

I wouldn't say bug hunting (in general, not just my humble contribution) has "little use". 

[Warmbrak]

I have to come out and say that I did not consider all the possibilities regarding unlimited fuel/ammo. I did not mean to berate your original post @DimSim - my apologies if it came out as such. If there was genuinely a requirement from ED's many private/commercial clients (military, contractors, test-pilot schools etc.) to change this mechanic to suit their training requirements I suppose it would have been implemented by now. It is also possible that more robust settings are available in the commercial version of DCS and not in the consumer flavour we have. 

It is not a popularity contest, and I can see now there are legitimate reasons for expanding this mechanic. Where it fits into ED's priority list where development time costs money I can't say. DCS is full of 'cheat' mechanics and these are necessary to compensate for many factors that can simply not be accounted for on a PC platform. As many here have rightly stated, there could be a benefit of expanding these mechanics to better suit training and development needs. 

To me the original post was a little bit vague and I felt the request could easily be accommodated with the current functionality in some way or another. Hopefully you are able to convince ED to spend the time and make this feature available in some form or another.

[DimSim]

 @Warmbrak Understood. Even if this post were about cheats and casual players, which it is not, I appreciate the dedicated simmers who care about attention to detail and realism which makes DCS very unique.

Edited February 2, 2021 by DimSim

[DimSim]

15 hours ago, Johnny Dioxin (Brixmis) said:

I can't see ED making a change to it now unless a large amount of the community were unhappy with it and if that was the case we'd have had umpteen posts about it before now.

I was surprised to find lack of existing posts on the topic.  I think the reason is that the current system is 'just adequate'.

My main issue is the realistic simulated weight flight model combined with current 'unlimited' behavior.

It spoils training with realistic weight behavior and a few things like vertical landing become impossible.

 

Many solutions ranging from simple to very detailed are possible for both end user and developer.

[SharpeXB]

For training purposes, the unlimited weapons setting isn’t necessary. Most all weapons or loadouts have an instant action training mission with an air start. So it’s easy to get all the practice you need, just restart the mission if you want to reload. 

[DimSim]

These 'unlimited' type assistances are like training wheels. They can be used by new players, returning players, training players or purely for fun.

 

The choice I'd like to see, is to use them WHEN desired rather than choosing them in advance. The maximizes both utility and enjoyment of the simulation.

 

For example, if a player was enjoying a ground strike mission but completely messed up their bombing run. They could press 'rearm' in flight and try again rather than restart.

 

Another example is enjoying a mission for fun, but while heading home ran out of fuel. Rather than simple exit, pressing 'add fuel' or 'refuel' in flight lets them land and enjoy the sim more.

 

For comparison, Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 has bindable actions Refuel, Add 25% Fuel, Repair. Used for the same reasons above, naturally without the combat.

[winghunter]

Totally miss this, also resupplying ammo via script.

[Dragon1-1]

Just make it respect the fuel setting in ME. So, for instance, if a mission starts with 50% fuel, your aircraft will fly forever with the fuel gauge pegged at 50%. Doesn't cover all the bases, but it should be enough for most.

[Good Ol 73]

It would be useful to be able to have tankers with unlimited fuel so they would always be available, even for enemy AI so they could patrol an area indefinitely. Hell, if they could land and refuel would be cool too, now they just shut down

[Tippis]

11 hours ago, Good Ol 73 said:

It would be useful to be able to have tankers with unlimited fuel so they would always be available, even for enemy AI so they could patrol an area indefinitely. Hell, if they could land and refuel would be cool too, now they just shut down

You can set up refuelling loops with the LandingReArFu action.

It even works. If set up and timed very carefully. For small groups. And specific aircraft. Sometimes.