DCS Detent Calculator *Updated for the F-15E and Special Options*

[JCofDI]

On 2/26/2023 at 1:33 PM, Bucic said:

Subject: F-5E

Hi!

First of all, as many others have already expressed, what a useful contribution! Thank you!

I'm building a set of functional replicas of the F-5E controls and I'd like to ask you how to proceed knowing that F-5E has a certain portion of the throttle movement for the engine OFF function? Do I enter the [throttle OFF max***] value as deadzone in your spreadsheet or is there another way?

I intend to use the following dimensions/angles of the real F-5E throttle quadrant (surveyed mainly from the ModelViewer):

			deg		% of total range
throttle total		90		100
throttle OFF min	0		0
throttle OFF max***	15		17
throttle idle		16		18
throttle MIL		72		80
throttle AB min		73		81
throttle AB max		90		100

See: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/318106-f-5e-simpit-cockpit-dimensions-and-flight-controls/

 

 

Thank you for the compliments, Bucic! This is starting to get a bit out of my wheelhouse as I'm no hardware guy, but it ultimately depends on how the hardware is designed to report the range. I can at least describe how DCS interacts with the hardware I am familiar with and go from there. To compare it to throttles on the market, you can set it up the "Warthog" way, or set it up the "Virpil" way (credit to Virpil, newer software lets you customize even this, but for sake of discussion we'll stick with it).

The Warthog has a fixed idle detent that reports at 0% once you're resting against it, and as you lift up over that detent and travel backwards to the OFF range (which reports as a button when fully in the OFF position), the axis simply remains at 0%. I believe this is the ideal way to manage a detent since in-game "0%" typically just translates to "Idle, waiting for cutoff command". The downside is that this is less customizable so if a module were to show that OFF range accurately, you wouldn't be able to model it appropriately.

The "Virpil" method, prior to software allowing you to set axis-buttons based on hardware position, meant that you had to use a range of the throttle as an axis button to fire the DCS OFF command. You don't want to be pressing toward idle and accidentally fire the command to shut down engines, so the typical setup for a Virpil throttle with an idle detent that rests at 5% of the range would be to set a virtual button in the 0-3% range, then in-game set a deadzone to match your idle detent location of 5%. This method certainly allows for more customization, but it's just more complicated as there's more items needing to be adjusted to make it all work properly - particularly with a split throttle arrangement. Once you get the hang of it though, it's perfectly suitable.

Now, for the DCS calculator portion. With the "Warthog" method, you have no in-game deadzone to adjust as 0% on the hardware is 0% in-game, and you just have cosmetic travel range in the real world - for the calculator you wouldn't need to touch the deadzone from the default.  With the "Virpil" method, you would enter the deadzone in DCS as 18 (as 18% is where you are at 16 degrees and idle, so it's your new "zero") and the DCS calculator would need that 18 deadzone that matches your axis-tune window. 

Cool project, and good luck with it! 

(As an aside, the new Virpil method which I use allows for it to mimic that Warthog style - where you can make the idle-detent your actual 0% of the throttle range and still assign virtual buttons at axis ranges below the detent using the hardware reporting values. Makes swapping to something like MSFS which doesn't easily handle the deadzone method much easier.)

Edited March 16, 2023 by JCofDI

[Bucic]

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/321702-throttle-idle-cutoff-position-with-finger-lifts/

On 3/16/2023 at 2:42 PM, JCofDI said:

Thank you for the compliments, Bucic! This is starting to get a bit out of my wheelhouse as I'm no hardware guy, but it ultimately depends on how the hardware is designed to report the range. I can at least describe how DCS interacts with the hardware I am familiar with and go from there. To compare it to throttles on the market, you can set it up the "Warthog" way, or set it up the "Virpil" way (credit to Virpil, newer software lets you customize even this, but for sake of discussion we'll stick with it).

The Warthog has a fixed idle detent that reports at 0% once you're resting against it, and as you lift up over that detent and travel backwards to the OFF range (which reports as a button when fully in the OFF position), the axis simply remains at 0%. I believe this is the ideal way to manage a detent since in-game "0%" typically just translates to "Idle, waiting for cutoff command". The downside is that this is less customizable so if a module were to show that OFF range accurately, you wouldn't be able to model it appropriately.

The "Virpil" method, prior to software allowing you to set axis-buttons based on hardware position, meant that you had to use a range of the throttle as an axis button to fire the DCS OFF command. You don't want to be pressing toward idle and accidentally fire the command to shut down engines, so the typical setup for a Virpil throttle with an idle detent that rests at 5% of the range would be to set a virtual button in the 0-3% range, then in-game set a deadzone to match your idle detent location of 5%. This method certainly allows for more customization, but it's just more complicated as there's more items needing to be adjusted to make it all work properly - particularly with a split throttle arrangement. Once you get the hang of it though, it's perfectly suitable.

Now, for the DCS calculator portion. With the "Warthog" method, you have no in-game deadzone to adjust as 0% on the hardware is 0% in-game, and you just have cosmetic travel range in the real world - for the calculator you wouldn't need to touch the deadzone from the default.  With the "Virpil" method, you would enter the deadzone in DCS as 18 (as 18% is where you are at 16 degrees and idle, so it's your new "zero") and the DCS calculator would need that 18 deadzone that matches your axis-tune window. 

Cool project, and good luck with it! 

(As an aside, the new Virpil method which I use allows for it to mimic that Warthog style - where you can make the idle-detent your actual 0% of the throttle range and still assign virtual buttons at axis ranges below the detent using the hardware reporting values. Makes swapping to something like MSFS which doesn't easily handle the deadzone method much easier.)

 

Thank you for the writeup, very informative.

I should have asked THIS question  before asking you https://forum.dcs.world/topic/321702-throttle-idle-cutoff-position-with-finger-lifts/

TLDR: Microswitches are required on my throttle as DCS won't allow the virtual throttles to go to idle without issueing *the* command (End+RAlt / End+Rshift), no matter the mapping tricks.

[WinOrLose]

Thanks for the effort in creating this. Now I may be doing something wrong as using this method with the Mig-21 I only get to roughly 85% throttle hitting the detent on the warthog throttle. I need to go past the detent and another 50% of movement before I get to 100%.

From memory the detent position was in the low 30's.

Any thoughts as to what I could be doing wrong?

 

Thanks.

[i_am_lugnuts]

Is the Detent Calculator still being supported and updated?  I'd love to get my F-15E dialed in perfectly like this calculator has done for everything else.  I've got the Strike Eagle close but it's not perfect.

 

Edit:  After putting my mind to it I did manage to get the detent sorted out.  I used the F-15C in the detent calculator software and played around with the detent location values.  Normally my detent location is 31 with a Thrustmaster Warthog throttle.  After a lot of trial and error I managed to settle on a detent location of 21.  A large difference but it did work for me.

Edited July 9, 2023 by i_am_lugnuts

[JCofDI]

15 hours ago, i_am_lugnuts said:

Is the Detent Calculator still being supported and updated?  I'd love to get my F-15E dialed in perfectly like this calculator has done for everything else.  I've got the Strike Eagle close but it's not perfect.

 

Edit:  After putting my mind to it I did manage to get the detent sorted out.  I used the F-15C in the detent calculator software and played around with the detent location values.  Normally my detent location is 31 with a Thrustmaster Warthog throttle.  After a lot of trial and error I managed to settle on a detent location of 21.  A large difference but it did work for me.

 

@i_am_lugnuts Glad to hear you got it to work out! Sorry for the delay in getting a new version out, but I actually just finalized the newest version tonight to include the F-15E and have updated the download page and first post accordingly. With a Thrustmaster Warthog you may be able to just use the Special Options, but otherwise using your proper Detent Location should get you all sorted out. Thanks for the interest!

 

 

On 6/18/2023 at 2:59 AM, WinOrLose said:

Thanks for the effort in creating this. Now I may be doing something wrong as using this method with the Mig-21 I only get to roughly 85% throttle hitting the detent on the warthog throttle. I need to go past the detent and another 50% of movement before I get to 100%.

From memory the detent position was in the low 30's.

Any thoughts as to what I could be doing wrong?

 

Thanks.

@WinOrLose Interesting results. If you're still having issues, would you be able to share what your User Curve looked like with the Mig-21? My Warthog throttle has a detent location of 31 which seems similar to yours and my numbers were as shown below. With this user curve my A/B kicks in just over the detent and the remaining post-detent range just controls how hard the afterburner runs.  With a Warthog, be sure you *don't* have the inverted checkbox marked with an x, and you should only be adjusting the X Saturation and Deadzone settings on the spreadsheet from their defaults (100 and 0 respectively) if you also adjust those settings inside DCS (which I don't believe a Warthog should need).

Edited July 10, 2023 by JCofDI

[WinOrLose]

16 hours ago, JCofDI said:

@WinOrLose Interesting results. If you're still having issues, would you be able to share what your User Curve looked like with the Mig-21? My Warthog throttle has a detent location of 31 which seems similar to yours and my numbers were as shown below. With this user curve my A/B kicks in just over the detent and the remaining post-detent range just controls how hard the afterburner runs.  With a Warthog, be sure you *don't* have the inverted checkbox marked with an x, and you should only be adjusting the X Saturation and Deadzone settings on the spreadsheet from their defaults (100 and 0 respectively) if you also adjust those settings inside DCS (which I don't believe a Warthog should need).

 

I'm away this week but will check when back home.

[WinOrLose]

On 7/10/2023 at 4:47 AM, JCofDI said:

@i_am_lugnuts Glad to hear you got it to work out! Sorry for the delay in getting a new version out, but I actually just finalized the newest version tonight to include the F-15E and have updated the download page and first post accordingly. With a Thrustmaster Warthog you may be able to just use the Special Options, but otherwise using your proper Detent Location should get you all sorted out. Thanks for the interest!

 

 

@WinOrLose Interesting results. If you're still having issues, would you be able to share what your User Curve looked like with the Mig-21? My Warthog throttle has a detent location of 31 which seems similar to yours and my numbers were as shown below. With this user curve my A/B kicks in just over the detent and the remaining post-detent range just controls how hard the afterburner runs.  With a Warthog, be sure you *don't* have the inverted checkbox marked with an x, and you should only be adjusting the X Saturation and Deadzone settings on the spreadsheet from their defaults (100 and 0 respectively) if you also adjust those settings inside DCS (which I don't believe a Warthog should need).

 

Hi - I ended up with.

0 20 40 60 80 100 100 100 100 100 100

[JCofDI]

On 7/18/2023 at 2:27 AM, WinOrLose said:

Hi - I ended up with.

0 20 40 60 80 100 100 100 100 100 100

Thanks for the reply. Are you able to share a screenshot of what you're entering at the left? Also, could you confirm if you're using the local spreadsheet or the Google Sheets version? If able to try the other method, do you get the same results in each?

At this point the only thing I can think is that it's an older Excel version causing issues with one of the formulas, but if you're using the Google Sheets version that wouldn't be it either.

Sorry for the frustration! If nothing else, feel free to give me your exact detent location and I can share the correct user curve.

[WinOrLose]

3 hours ago, JCofDI said:

Thanks for the reply. Are you able to share a screenshot of what you're entering at the left? Also, could you confirm if you're using the local spreadsheet or the Google Sheets version? If able to try the other method, do you get the same results in each?

At this point the only thing I can think is that it's an older Excel version causing issues with one of the formulas, but if you're using the Google Sheets version that wouldn't be it either.

Sorry for the frustration! If nothing else, feel free to give me your exact detent location and I can share the correct user curve.

Thanks for the response - pretty sure it was the excel sheet. I'm flying the 21 infrequently but will find some time over the weekend to test. Regards.

[perri81]

Thank you!! This worked flawlessly with my Virpil CM3 Throttle (F/A-18C and F-5E modules)

[Mistermann]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:02 PM, GK61 said:

Hi, so I'm curious after having used this with my prior WH Throttle with much success, what about now with the advent of the STECS throttle and the specific detent settings contained within the VKB config software which accommodates the physical idle/AB detents with events etc. is it now no  longer necessary to configure this in the DCS controls as well or is this method still used for one's software curves which is more of what I'm guessing, thank you. 

 

I setup my STECS using DCS and avoided using the VKB software completely.  Years later, I am still scarred from their software experience setting up my Ultimate stick.  I am glad I could accomplish this while avoiding VKBs configurator tool.

Now, I only have a single detent and nothing fancy, so YMMV here if you're looking to use multiple detents.  Personally, I am happy with the results.  All my aircraft are now setup and I enjoy the STECS detent because of the hard work from @JCofDI

[Oh, and thanks to your Algebra instructor(s) - I hope you reached out and let them know about this ]

[Saskuatch]

Hi,

I recently got a cm3 mongoose and was trying to set up the iddle and afterburner detents whent I ran into your too. Was just wondering if the deadzone setting works? on the F-16 at least, I have a deadzone of 12 and the afterburner starts a before the mil/AB detent. The iddle is fine, I set it up with the virpil software to make it a button when I come in and out of it.

Should I put something else into the numbers for the calculator? or just mess with the curve manually? It was pretty accurate without the deadzone except of course the iddle detent wasn't in the right spot.

[Zapon]

Trying to use this with Spino7's 's F15EX Mod- I have the thrustmaster warthog throttle-

and i did it like i set up everything else- it gets a result for me of right throttle 38, left throttle 36 for where the detente stops it and i have to lift it further

sidenote:(I set it to F15C)

it seems this can't handle planes not pre-selectable though- it ends up at the detente, not going to AB-  i have go go past it a bit, before it turns on- and  i am not sure how to readjust the calculator for this

I looked at the position once it does go to afterburner, the throttles(both left and right ) are like at position 13(left) 14(right) - which i think isn't what the calc is expecting

How do i compensate when it comes to aircraft not in the detente calculator?


wish i could figure out how to tweak the spreadsheet or the old software calculator tool to do it

Edited March 10 by Zapon

[GregP]

Just wanted to say thank you for such an amazingly simple tool.  I've been a DCS fan since the early days and could never wrap my mind around how to properly set the user curve to get the afterburner detent working.  Using your tool, I was able to get it done in just a few minutes.  Really great work, thank you for making this available to us all!

[Zapon]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:50 AM, Zapon said:

Trying to use this with Spino7's 's F15EX Mod- I have the thrustmaster warthog throttle-

and i did it like i set up everything else- it gets a result for me of right throttle 38, left throttle 36 for where the detente stops it and i have to lift it further

sidenote:(I set it to F15C)

it seems this can't handle planes not pre-selectable though- it ends up at the detente, not going to AB-  i have go go past it a bit, before it turns on- and  i am not sure how to readjust the calculator for this

I looked at the position once it does go to afterburner, the throttles(both left and right ) are like at position 13(left) 14(right) - which i think isn't what the calc is expecting

How do i compensate when it comes to aircraft not in the detente calculator?


wish i could figure out how to tweak the spreadsheet or the old software calculator tool to do it

 

Still curious if anyone knows what the best way to work with aircraft not in the predefined tabs , when adding the detent

Picking up the very put-together SU-30 mod, and going through this again trying to line up the physical detent , while getting a decently smooth curve