Fox1 guidance failure in FC1.12a

[A.S]

so in that case im asking myself why should i take a Fox1 to fight a chaffing and maneuvering target, the same fox1 that forces me to keep lock and take risk for nothing cauz misleaded as easily as a fox3 :music_whistling:

 

understood, but its not so easy how it sounds...everything comes down to how its done.....and to be honest ERs are my favs ;) to kill far range or to prepare my closure in advantage

[D-Scythe]

It does change signal- inertial guidance in the initial stage differs from final stage homing. How exactly, I can't answer, neither that manual goes in such details. It's written for pilots, what do they care about this? :D

 

No launch warning is given because of the missile datalink, which guides the missile into its acquisition basket to begin terminal homing - exactly like AMRAAM in TWS and STT, the latter which is not the case in LO. I've brought this up before in beta testing - an AMRAAM and R-27 launch in STT should not give any missile launch warning to the target, only later when the missiles activate their own seekers.

 

Early model AIM-7Ms do provide a launch warning because they have no datalink. Sparrows have been updated since then to include a missile datalink in the AIM-7P version, IIRC, which entered service in the late '80s as an upgrade to the AIM-7M stock.

Edited September 1, 2008 by D-Scythe

[FLANKERATOR]

Because they have the highest energy and maneuverability on LO? ;)

 

For sure but stills Poker shot as every time u fire Alamo u prey LO code to not break its guidance :D

[A.S]

For sure but stills Poker shot as every time u fire Alamo u prey LO code to not break its guidance :D

 

break it...reaquire it in "EOS for lock" or in MED ...but u keep the bandit bussy ;) down to the moment of "kill-range"

 

5 missiles for setup only ONE for kill

[A.S]

No launch warning is given because of the missile datalink, which guides the missile into its acquisition basket to begin terminal homing - exactly like AMRAAM in TWS and STT, the latter which is not the case in LO. I've brought this up before in beta testing - an AMRAAM and R-27 launch in STT should not give any missile launch warning to the target, only later when the missiles activate their own seekers.

 

Early model AIM-7Ms do provide a launch warning because they have no datalink. Sparrows have been updated since then to include a missile datalink in the AIM-7P version, IIRC, which entered service in the late '80s as an upgrade to the AIM-7M stock.

 

correct

[Boberro]

kiss kiss dont use that online :cry::smilewink:

 

heh don't worry, I feel good what I have default ;)

[GGTharos]

Someone misunderstood someting, maybe it was me ... here's how I understand the MiG-29 FCS works:

 

When you launch a radar guided missile, the prerequisite is that you are in STT already. The datalink signal is generated when the missile comes off the rail, and persists until the engagement it finished since the FCS has no way of knowing the missile status.

 

At the same time, the seeker homes in on the radar reflection from the carrier aircraft. This can happen after some mid-course phase where the missile goes inertial-to-homing, but that depends on the launch range.

 

Meanwhile, the actual RADAR signal emitted from the carrier aircraft does not change, because that's what the missile homes in on, as it uses a monopulse seeker, thus not requiring the radar to switch to some sort of CW or other special guidance mode signal as the case used to be for earlier missiles (including sparrow).

 

The seeker on the missile is passive, and neither the launching craft nor the targetted craft has any way of telling when it is activated to start terminal homing.

 

Assuming the datalink is not detectable, there should simply no way to detect a missile launch from the radar signal itself - assuming the datalink IS detectable, OR the radar signal MUST change for guidance, you get a launch warning the moment that missile comes off the rail.

 

Those are the only two possibilities, and I don't believe the radar signal would change during flight, because that just makes it easy for your enemy to defeat your missile shot via range jamming (Seeker will activate too late/early ... not that R-27R had a lot of functionality in terms of HoJ anyway, IIRC)

[FLANKERATOR]

break it...reaquire it in "EOS for lock" or in MED ...but u keep the bandit bussy ;) down to the moment of "kill-range"

 

5 missiles for setup only ONE for kill

 

Im not saying that it is impossible to win with long range Fox1s on LO.

A2A combat is a long battle which not depends on 1 or 2 shots.

 

Im saying that everytime u fire Alamo u are wondering if that bug will occur and spoof your missiles. while deadly ET or AIM120/AIM7 wont loose guidance for dark reasons only for ennemy good defending reasons.

[GGTharos]

You would be incorrect. I've seen plenty of AIM-7's and AIM-120's go completely stupid right off the rail.

 

Im saying that everytime u fire Alamo u are wondering if that bug will occur and spoof your missiles. while deadly ET or AIM120/AIM7 wont loose guidance for dark reasons only for ennemy good defending reasons.

[FLANKERATOR]

Rgr GGtharos :)

 

so lets say that LO is a very high sim and everytime the Missile goes crazy thats because of missile lack of maintenance like in pure reality :)

thinking that will erase frustration and adds adrenaline :)

[GGTharos]

Yep ... apparently our missiles are stored in a sauna and also they are banged around a lot in transport :)

[RvETito]

BTW, the AIM-7 in LO has exactly the same seeker model like the R-27R/ER/EM. Same for the AIM-120 and R-77- they only differ in energy (77 is faster) and smoke trail. We have 3 types of seeker models- active, semi and infrared.

 

But I hear your SARH pain- it pisses me off sometimes when it misses from point blank but I've seen it doing crazy things. I say- it's good for the gameplay, makes you think a bit more.

[FLANKERATOR]

BTW, the AIM-7 in LO has exactly the same seeker model like the R-27R/ER/EM. Same for the AIM-120 and R-77- they only differ in energy (77 is faster) and smoke trail. We have 3 types of seeker models- active, semi and infrared.

 

But I hear your SARH pain- it pisses me off sometimes when it misses from point blank but I've seen it doing crazy things. I say- it's good for the gameplay, makes you think a bit more.

 

As i said then ;) some voodoo for our missiles sounds good idea :D

 

Thanks guys for your replies.

[RvEYoda]

ER has same problems as aim 7 in lockon,

but because it has extended range you have much more time to spoof it,

(and at greater range it also becomes easier).

 

If you set up a kept lock/lost lock statistical test of aim 7 and ER both from 10-15 km,

you would see their numbers are very, very close, while r77 and amraam

would be fairly identical to each other, much better than r27&aim7.

 

SARHs in lockon are super susceptible to chaff and also susceptible to notch.

 

 

For warnings read GG's last post :P

 

So far i havent seen a single missile go ballistic off the rail, that I could not

explain using lockon missile dynamics.

[S77th-konkussion]

You would be incorrect. I've seen plenty of AIM-7's and AIM-120's go completely stupid right off the rail.

 

Hell- at one point- it was VERY smart to make sure you were behind the firing aircraft to avoid getting smacked by friendly slammers. I've been 4 km off Goya's 10 o clock and gotten killed before.

[Pilotasso]

Im not saying that it is impossible to win with long range Fox1s on LO.

A2A combat is a long battle which not depends on 1 or 2 shots.

 

Im saying that everytime u fire Alamo u are wondering if that bug will occur and spoof your missiles. while deadly ET or AIM120/AIM7 wont loose guidance for dark reasons only for ennemy good defending reasons.

 

Your being pessimistic...all missiles will loose track including the infamous ET wich does go balistic from time to time. Dont even mention the AMRAAM and the Sparrow. both of wich are downgraded copy/paste missiles of the R-27 and R-77 missiles respectively.

 

They are essentialy the same except for the american missiles are slower and shorter ranged.

[FLANKERATOR]

all missiles will loose track including the infamous ET wich does go balistic from time to time.

 

Thats exactely what im saying Pilo.

 

I only hope if some LO/ED developpers/programmers tells us how is written the Missiles behaviour code which will explain clearly WHY those missiles just go ballistic and under what circumstances.

 

we have the freedom to setup the missile effectivness slider button on LO options BUT assuming we have same effectiveness why 2 same missiles fired in same circumstances and facing same defensive maneuvering and countermeasuring and so on will behave differently on LO??

that is the missed part.

Edited September 1, 2008 by FLANKERATOR

[RvEYoda]

because the result is based partially on probability calculations.

[FLANKERATOR]

Indeed Yoda and i think that this probability calculation factor represents somehow those things we can not control as weapons Lack of maintenance or some stuff like that. we can simply talk about the factor of LUCK

[RvEYoda]

no, it is more complicated....i could explain my discoveries about lo missile code

mechanics....where the p-numbers go in and so on.....but not rather on public forum

so everyone starts exploiting left and right.

[GTengineer]

Quick question for those of you who know the intricate modeling of this sim. I have noticed that when an R-27ER or R-77 is launched at me from near Rmax, I usually don't get an early warning until I turn my ECM off. Is there some truth to this or is it just my imagination?

 

BTW, regarding the OP, I have noticed this a lot too. I have seen many times R-27ER, and R-77 fly in a beautiful straight line to nowhere. I thought I was just getting good :D

[RvETito]

You get no warning in HOJ shot until you turn off your jammer or you're within burnthrough.

[GTengineer]

You get no warning in HOJ shot until you turn off your jammer or you're within burnthrough.

 

ah thanks, ;)

 

So is it worth it to keep ECM if we know we have a HOJ on the way? It seems like a situation like you are damned if you do and you're damned if you dont. I have read suggestions that ECM could be turned on and off in 5 sec intervals to make the HOJ missile work harder.

Edited September 1, 2008 by GTengineer

[S77th-konkussion]

I beleive an F15 will receive a LOCK warning, but not a launch warning. The Flankers/ Migs will receive neither until music off or burn-through as Tito said.

[RvETito]

No, actualy you recieve lock warning in HOJ in the MiG/Su, I don't think there's any difference from the F-15 in LO.