Case Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Apparently the JSF didn't do too well in simulated dogfights against future Sukhoi fighters: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24328813-31477,00.html Sofar I couldn't find any reports this article was referring to... Anyone have some more links? There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) In my opinion, BVR is also a major problem for JSF against Advanced Flankers. Just look at the number and range of AA missiles, then fuel capacity. I am not sure about the speed? How fast is JSF? Edited September 21, 2008 by =4c= Hajduk Veljko Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
ED Team Groove Posted September 21, 2008 ED Team Posted September 21, 2008 Well. simulated aircombat. Can we get the report as pdf to judge this for ourselfes ? Anyone remember the superb performance of the Indian Sukhois against the F-15s ? ;) Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
Case Posted September 21, 2008 Author Posted September 21, 2008 Well. simulated aircombat. Can we get the report as pdf to judge this for ourselves? Indeed, simulated aircombat, but the article in a Dutch newspaper that referred to the Australian source mentioned that these simulations were done by the Rand Corporation. With so many potential buyers for the F-35 it wouldn't make much sense to show that the plane is not up to it. But as we both said, anyone know other sources? There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Vekkinho Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Anyone remember the superb performance of the Indian Sukhois against the F-15s ? ;) I don't! When did this happen?! Red Flag or some similar RL dogfight exercise or just a theory based on numbers and calculations?! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Vekkinho Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Apparently the JSF didn't do too well in simulated dogfights against future Sukhoi fighters Simulated dogfights against future Sukhoi fighters like operational Su-35 testbed or simulated against PAK-FA assumptions and expectations?! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Case Posted September 21, 2008 Author Posted September 21, 2008 Here's my translation of the Dutch newspaper article, as Google Translate messed it up pretty bad. 2016: Russians overwhelm JSF According to an analysis of a large simulation the jet fighter that the Dutch government wants to buy is much too visible for 'the enemy'. For the Dutch ministry of Defense, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is the only possible successor to the F-16. But a large scale simulation of the U.S. Department of Defense held at the end of last month, where the JSF was up against modern Russian Sukhoi jet fighters, delivers bad news for the Air Force. During the simulated excersize Pacific Vision, the jets were 'clubbed to death like seals', according to a Australian customer who acquired an analysis of the simulation. This qualification is contradicted by the manufacturor Lockheed Martin, who admits that the JSF with other fighters was part of this 'wargame'. At least seventy senior officials from the U.S. and Australia attended the simulation. They followed a simulated attack of China on Taiwan, which the Western Air Force and Navy had to reverse. The exercise went ahead to the year 2016. At that time both the JSF as the new Russian Sukhois will be in use, the latter in service with Russia, China and Indonesia. The JSF, according to the simulation, would be 'overwhelmed' by the larger numbers, firepower and better radar systems of the adversary. Especially the Sukhoi 35 makes short shrift to the alleged invisibility of the JSF, an important selling point of the fighter. The JSF is designed for rapid strikes outside the sight of enemy aircraft. Though according to the analysis it would also engage in direct combat, where it is 'doubly inferior' as it 'can't turn, can't climb and can't run'. Initiator of the analysis, the Rand Corporation, is an influential American military think tank that is enabled by the Netherlands for a comparison of the JSF with other devices. The exercise has no impact for the Netherlands, according to the Dutch Defense ministry. "The simulation focused on the establishment of a future Air Force fleet in which we do not participate. And it was a strategic analysis, not a simulation of the capabilities of the F-35 in aerial combat". Original Dutch article: http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article1069130.ece/2016_Russen_overweldigen_JSF There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Pilotasso Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 The F-35 is the F-16 replacement that is not in service yet nor are its final specs known, and the flanker is a 30 year old air superiority jet without much to tell but airshow perfomances. I dont see where you can start making any comparisons posssible, if thats possible on 2 jets of 2 different generations. .
Case Posted September 21, 2008 Author Posted September 21, 2008 I don't see where you can start making any comparisons posssible, if thats possible on 2 jets of 2 different generations. This time it's not LockOn forum members making the comparisons, but the US ministry of defense. Hence, the results of this simulation would be pretty interesting. That's why I'd like to see some more information... There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Pilotasso Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) The US ministry of defense knows about F-35 specs better than we do, besides they made over estimations of the russian fighters before. Look at F-15, and more recently at Eurofighter. They both were designed to meet planes that didnt quite materialize and ended up without opposition. Even though many consider the Eurofighter already obsolete and over delayed the fact is it still managed to get by all this time without much to compare to, although I believe the term isnt "obsolete" for that very reason. Edited September 21, 2008 by Pilotasso .
nscode Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) I never realized that the MiG-25 "didnt quite materialize" ;) You can call it over estimation. I call it heaving absolutely no clue about the opposition. They either over or underestimate things at an alarming proportion. Edited September 21, 2008 by nscode Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Case Posted September 21, 2008 Author Posted September 21, 2008 The US ministry of defense knows about F-35 specs better than we do, besides they made over estimations of the russian fighters before.And that's exactly why I'd like to see more of this simulated exercise! What are the specs for the F-35 and what are their estimations of Russian fighters? I doubt this information is for grabs on the internet, but both the Dutch and the Australians are potential buyers and especially the Australians will have Sukhois in their backyard, already now and more so in the future... There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
ED Team Groove Posted September 21, 2008 ED Team Posted September 21, 2008 I don't know how "deep" you guys are interested into the military market, including the PR being done around certain military systems. There is a video circulating around to tell us why USAF needs the F-22, its pretty entertaining though. So remember to take the results of such simulations with a grain of salt, because usually we dont know the setup etc. Example: How many Su-35 vs. how many F-35 ? Which situation ? Which, which, which... Obviously they dont want to tell, all the want to tell us: We need more or better F-35s ! Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 I dont see where you can start making any comparisons posssible, if thats possible on 2 jets of 2 different generations.Save some money buy and read the Yefim's Sukhoi Su-27 book. Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
Pilotasso Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 I have more variety of books than yefins. ;) .
Case Posted September 21, 2008 Author Posted September 21, 2008 Obviously they dont want to tell, all the want to tell us: We need more or better F-35s ! I wonder what potential buyers of the F-35 will think of this? There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Pilotasso Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 So far most of the buyers are participants in its development. All others will probably wait since production rate will be prioritized for member nations first anyway. .
Vekkinho Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 The US ministry of defense knows about F-35 specs better than we do, besides they made over estimations of the russian fighters before. Look at F-15, and more recently at Eurofighter. They both were designed to meet planes that didnt quite materialize and ended up without opposition. Even though many consider the Eurofighter already obsolete and over delayed the fact is it still managed to get by all this time without much to compare to, although I believe the term isnt "obsolete" for that very reason. But You said Spanish EF2K was beaten by Portugese F-16, so I wouldn't call it being without opposition! We must admit that this exercise simulated Su-35 fighters in large quantities. Here: The JSF, according to the simulation, would be 'overwhelmed' by the larger numbers, firepower and better radar systems of the adversary. An assumption that may be true during "cold war" hostilities but never actually happened! (xcept Israel)... We already talked of US+NATO/Iraqi and US+NATO/Yugoslavia score in air battle. There was a single F-15C wing in Allied Force, that's...let's see...12 airframes against 4 and a half operational Fulcrums in YuAF. 80+ Yugoslav bis/MF Fishbeds never took off during AF. So yeah, 4 JSF airframes might be clubbed to death against 30+ Su-35 but are there 30+ Su-35s in service worldwide by the 2016?! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
nscode Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 80+ Yugoslav bis/MF Fishbeds never took off during AF. not on air-to-air duties anyway.. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Vekkinho Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Plus there's a way of starving the airframes of spare parts. It's called 10 years of sanctions proven with Iraq, Yugoslavia and Libya example! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Vekkinho Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 not on air-to-air duties anyway.. A2G?! Kukes airport attack by a pair of G-4 is a lie, right?! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
GGTharos Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 ... And according to simulated A2A combat, 'modern' flankers now have a 2:1 exchange ratio against an APG-63v(1) equipped F-15 as opposed to the 6:1 the 'enjoyed' back when they weren't quite so modern. I'm sure we'll have flanker fans complaining over this one real quick now. ;) You can set up any scenario you like in simulations; dogfights - in particular the furball that's being presented here, is the perfect way to negate stealth. It's a possible scenario, but judging the fighter's performance in a single scenario is probably not the best way to go about judging the fighter's performance overall. I'm pretty sure a Su-35 would be quite overwhelmed by superior numebrs of F-5S' as well ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
nscode Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Not actively. They were ready and armed for A2G in case of ground war. In order to survive to see that day some were moved from airport to airport. The point is, they moved freely (but not easily) around, without ever being discovered, let alone engaged. All with the poor 50 year old RWR. Kukes is a fairy tale btw. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Vekkinho Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) ^^^^ right said GGT! Yeah, A2G equiped MiG-21 flying a NOE thru valleys is not a NATO target but a Yu AAA one. Remember, airdefense was told to shoot anything that moves! Edited September 21, 2008 by Vekkinho [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Case Posted September 21, 2008 Author Posted September 21, 2008 Before this thread turns into a fanboy orgy, did anyone read anything more about this, or is it only in the Australian and Dutch media? All I could find on google was this: http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.malaysia/browse_thread/thread/2911e8756d10682e/2bd5b0812651d5e8?lnk=raot&pli=1 There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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