MiG-23-98 Who has more info?

[1MajorKoenig]

Hi all,

 

I am curious about the proposed MiG-23-98 upgrade and I hope to find some knowledgeable ppl here with more insights.

 

The proposed 23-98 upgrade program was aimed to extend the lifecycle of the MiG-23 in the late 1990s after the relatively interesting MiG-21-93 upgrade. Basically it was supposed to replace the Saphir-23 with a Moskit-23 - which in turns seems to be evolved from the MiG-29’s radar (?). Plus adding new missiles such as the R-77 and helmet sights. There have been two further proposed versions which were less comprehensive (98-2 and 98-3). That is basically the known facts around this. Rumour has it that Angolan MiG-23 may have received the -2 or -3 upgrade (?).

 

Now - as far as I know they converted an MLD as a demonstrator - there are some pictures on the internet about it:

 

 

NOW - here is finally my question

 

Does anyone have further infos or pictures about the proposed upgraded cockpit? As per the scarce info it seems like two MFDs were planned to be added (potentially the same ones as on the MiG-29SMT) - does anyone know anything on this?

 

Cheers and thanks all in advance!

[Seaeagle]

4 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Hi all,

 

I am curious about the proposed MiG-23-98 upgrade and I hope to find some knowledgeable ppl here with more insights.

 

The proposed 23-98 upgrade program was aimed to extend the lifecycle of the MiG-23 in the late 1990s after the relatively interesting MiG-21-93 upgrade. Basically it was supposed to replace the Saphir-23 with a Moskit-23 - which in turns seems to be evolved from the MiG-29’s radar (?). Plus adding new missiles such as the R-77 and helmet sights.

I don't know much about the proposed MiG-23-98 upgrade either, but IIRC the radar upgrade involved the "Kopyo" - a planar slotted array radar that is essentially a smaller more compact version of the N010 "Zhuk"(designed primarily for the MiG-29M and K). The Kopyo was also used for MiG-21 upgrades and a vesion of it was installed in a pod for the Su-25TM/Su-39.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Seaeagle

[Anduriel]

1 hour ago, Seaeagle said:

I don't know much about the proposed MiG-23-98 upgrade either, but IIRC the radar upgrade involved the "Kopyo" - a planar slotted array radar that is essentially a smaller more compact version of the N010 "Zhuk"(designed primarily for the MiG-29M and K). The Kopyo was also used for MiG-21 upgrades and a vesion of it was installed in a pod for the Su-25TM/Su-39.

 

 

 

No, Kopyo that was installed on MiG-21-93 was never planned. Kopyo was planned as scalable pruduct, so one of the variants proposed initially was  a Super-Kopyo.

Though it eventually boiled down to three variants.

1. The best and most expensive MiG-23-98-1 - N008 is replaced with Moskit-23 radar. I don't know what it's was based upon, though I'd like think its a derivative of Mig-29M's N010 Zhuk-radar.

From the table I could find it is slightly better than original Zhuk, having 90/60 km detection ranges and all multifunctional radar's bells and whistles.

2. Less expensive (and really convoluted, IMO) MIG-23-98-2. Old Sapfir remains, but intsead there is a podded version of Moskit - Moskit-21K with not that great detection ranges. Though being MFR it allowed use of RVV-AE and A2G modes.

3. Most cheap varaint - MiG-23-98-3. No new radar, old Sapfir-23 remains, but it gets a radiocorrection feauture and some tweaks in WCS allowing MiG to use RVV-AE missile.

As for cockpit - I coun't find any photos, the onl info I could gather  that there were MFI-68 MFDs installed in  the cockpit (amount unspecified). MFI-68 is the same MFD that MiG-29SMT uses, and here it's photo:

Edited May 9, 2021 by Anduriel

[G.J.S]

7 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Hi all,

 

I am curious about the proposed MiG-23-98 upgrade and I hope to find some knowledgeable ppl here with more insights.

 

The proposed 23-98 upgrade program was aimed to extend the lifecycle of the MiG-23 in the late 1990s after the relatively interesting MiG-21-93 upgrade. Basically it was supposed to replace the Saphir-23 with a Moskit-23 - which in turns seems to be evolved from the MiG-29’s radar (?). Plus adding new missiles such as the R-77 and helmet sights. There have been two further proposed versions which were less comprehensive (98-2 and 98-3). That is basically the known facts around this. Rumour has it that Angolan MiG-23 may have received the -2 or -3 upgrade (?).

 

Now - as far as I know they converted an MLD as a demonstrator - there are some pictures on the internet about it:

 

 

NOW - here is finally my question

 

Does anyone have further infos or pictures about the proposed upgraded cockpit? As per the scarce info it seems like two MFDs were planned to be added (potentially the same ones as on the MiG-29SMT) - does anyone know anything on this?

 

Cheers and thanks all in advance!

 

Flogging a dead horse?

 

While the -23 DID have a period of time where it was relevant, its too much of a dinosaur to be considered worthy of the expenditure that any of these upgrades would require.

Please understand - these are MY opinions alone.

The Helmet mounted sight:- Now, this would only really be of use in an aircraft that can at least turn with the best of them - the MiG-23 is NOT a competent dogfighter - in any sense of the word. The -23 most effective trait is straight line acceleration and speed at low level - that's ALL it has going for it.

It cannot even attempt to kid anyone that it has any dogfight in it - the inlets are very prone to surging during maneuver, throttle response is slow by more recent standards, rear view is a distant dream, there are too many canopy bits impeding view, the list goes on.

The R-77:- THIS would give the -23 a reason to make other later gen aircraft respect its nose, but it would require an expensive radar set update to utilize, and nobody with any business acumen would allow that kind of expenditure on an antique when there are many other options in the late '90's. 

As for the picture itself, white 36 is a test aircraft that is dragged out quite a bit to show theoretical loads - some of which are true, some of which are scaremongering (literally my d*cks bigger than yours mentality to intimidate).

[Mars Exulte]

21 minutes ago, G.J.S said:

While the -23 DID have a period of time where it was relevant, its too much of a dinosaur to be considered worthy of the expenditure that any of these upgrades would require.

  Pretty much, by the time they were coming out the MiG-29 was available with all the same or better, plus a much more capable airframe.

 

Quote

the MiG-23 is NOT a competent dogfighter - in any sense of the word. The -23 most effective trait is straight line acceleration and speed at low level - that's ALL it has going for it.

  That's not accurate at all. It's inferior to a 4th gen lifting body aircraft, most especially in low speed handling, but saying it's complete garbage is at best gross exaggeration. People proposing that love to skip over the part where after the initial few versions, the 23 was extensively lightened and improved, particularly with the MLA (the most mass produced version) and being further improved with the MLD. An even cursory glance over it's capabilities indicate a ''fair to good'' aircraft, generally inferior to 4th gen aircraft (unsurprising) but a long, long way from being useless.

 

  Also, the whole point of an HMS is to greatly widen your engagement envelope... specifically so you DON'T have to ''turn with the best of them''.

 

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It cannot even attempt to kid anyone that it has any dogfight in it

  It's not an F-18, but there is more to fighting than simply pulling hard on the stick at stall/post stall speeds.

 

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the inlets are very prone to surging during maneuver

  Is there a source for this?

 

Quote

throttle response is slow by more recent standards, rear view is a distant dream

  Both fair points, and marks in favor of the later generation aircraft, but that's still not remotely the same thing as ''it has no fight in it''

 

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the list goes on.

  Not really...

 

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The R-77:- THIS would give the -23 a reason to make other later gen aircraft respect its nose, but it would require an expensive radar set update to utilize, and nobody with any business acumen would allow that kind of expenditure on an antique when there are many other options in the late '90's. 

  Very possible, at any rate these upgrades didn't happen for a reason. The MiG-23 arrived at kind of a weird transitional time. Had it appeared a few years earlier where it was fighting more of its technological peers (Phantoms, etc) it would've had a much better reputation. I think it's a bit funny that these aircraft I just mentioned are considered ''good and capable'' and it's equal or superior to them but somehow ''has no fight in it'' @@ I think cultural bias has more to do with these ideas than anything else.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Mars Exulte

[1MajorKoenig]

vor einer Stunde schrieb G.J.S:

Please understand - these are MY opinions alone

Roger.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb G.J.S:

The Helmet mounted sight:- Now, this would only really be of use in an aircraft that can at least turn with the best of them - the MiG-23 is NOT a competent dogfighter

See — it’s not necessarily the best turn fighter to win a dogfight. Essentially tactics and cooperation will beat brute force most of the times in my opinion 

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb G.J.S:

The R-77:- THIS would give the -23 a reason to make other later gen aircraft

Which brings me to the main point. While being able to manoeuvre like a dog may be impressive at airshows the tactical value is questionable. The most important factor is how you deploy your fighters. AWACS and the likes are key. Putting the fighters into the right fights and being even more critical than ground control. 
Essentially with the new generation AA Missiles and the right guidance it doesn’t matter if you employ a 23 or a 29 to deliver the R-77. I certainly see the business case if you already have a fleet of 23s.

 

Now that said - do you know if the cockpit has been rebuilt according to the rumours or if that was just an “idea”?

[G.J.S]

59 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Pretty much, by the time they were coming out the MiG-29 was available with all the same or better, plus a much more capable airframe.

 

  That's not accurate at all. It's inferior to a 4th gen lifting body aircraft, most especially in low speed handling, but saying it's complete garbage is at best gross exaggeration. People proposing that love to skip over the part where after the initial few versions, the 23 was extensively lightened and improved, particularly with the MLA (the most mass produced version) and being further improved with the MLD. An even cursory glance over it's capabilities indicate a ''fair to good'' aircraft, generally inferior to 4th gen aircraft (unsurprising) but a long, long way from being useless.

 

  Also, the whole point of an HMS is to greatly widen your engagement envelope... specifically so you DON'T have to ''turn with the best of them''.

Yes it widens the envelope, providing you can still maintain a sight picture. If the TGT goes behind a -23's shoulders, he loses sight.

59 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

 

  It's not an F-18, but there is more to fighting than simply pulling hard on the stick at stall/post stall speeds.

I do know chap.

59 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Is there a source for this?

Sort of. Having flown against Czech -23's before in a friendly capacity, good natured turn and burn providing training for both parties. Seen it, and had pilots re-living it and suggestions of how to stay out of "the burps" over bar discussions.

59 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Both fair points, and marks in favor of the later generation aircraft, but that's still not remotely the same thing as ''it has no fight in it''

You cant fight that which you cannot see . . . . 

59 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

 

  Not really...

Have i offended you at some point in the past I'm not aware of?

59 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

 

  Very possible, at any rate these upgrades didn't happen for a reason. The MiG-23 arrived at kind of a weird transitional time. Had it appeared a few years earlier where it was fighting more of its technological peers (Phantoms, etc) it would've had a much better reputation. I think it's a bit funny that these aircraft I just mentioned are considered ''good and capable'' and it's equal or superior to them but somehow ''has no fight in it'' @@ I think cultural bias has more to do with these ideas than anything else.

My sparring time against the Czech -23's was when I was on FGR.2 (very late '80's, early '90's). The MiG had a reputation alright . . . just not that great of one.

Low level - high speed, it would have caused even Tornado a headache, that was where it really came into its own, fast and straight. At lower levels was where its turn performance was better - but still it was woefully ungifted. Higher up - turn if you want, but unless you have many knots on the airframe, you wont be getting away.

It did have good points - acceleration when clean was stellar, low level ride, simplicity, and ability to operate from rough or ill prepared strips. 

[1MajorKoenig]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb G.J.S:

My sparring time against the Czech -23's was when I was on FGR.2

Did you have by chance the opportunity to fly a 23 yourself during that time?

 

And what version did you fly against? An MF I assume? The max g load for earlier models was extremely low and got only improved in the later and lighter ML, MLA and MLD models. 

[G.J.S]

4 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Did you have by chance the opportunity to fly a 23 yourself during that time?

 

And what version did you fly against? An MF I assume? The max g load for earlier models was extremely low and got only improved in the later and lighter ML, MLA and MLD models. 

Not too long before they were retired, and they were definitely ML variants. Unfortunately I did not get a back seat, but a couple others did.

Edited May 10, 2021 by G.J.S
Had put ‘after’ instead of ‘before’, rectified.

[Anduriel]

12 hours ago, G.J.S said:

The R-77:- THIS would give the -23 a reason to make other later gen aircraft respect its nose, but it would require an expensive radar set update to utilize, and nobody with any business acumen would allow that kind of expenditure on an antique when there are many other options in the late '90's. 

Interestingly enough, currently an upgrade to MiG-23 i s quite viable option for Syria or Lybia (Haftar forces). By upgrading WCS and installing MFDs you could turn mediocre fighter int quite decent strike platform (even with dumb boms new ballistic solver would improve accuracy quite a bit) and addition of ability to use R-77 would mean that Turkish/Israeli aircraft will be much more careful in engaging and intercepting, thus allowing more leeway in operations.

[1MajorKoenig]

As a side note - this is how the MiG-21-93 cockpit looks like:

 

[Seaeagle]

22 hours ago, Anduriel said:

No, Kopyo that was installed on MiG-21-93 was never planned.

Well as I said earlier, I really don't know about this upgrade. I just remember once reading, that installing a Kopyo was planned as replacement for the original radar. But like "Zhuk", "Kopyo" is a name that covers an entire line of radars, so it wouldn't necessarily have to be the same one installed with the MiG-21-93 upgrade. Aside from the possibility of using planar slotted array antennas of different sizes(as with the Zhuk, there is also a variant with a phased array antenna(Kopyo-F).

 

But then I am not interested in the MiG-23 as such, so I haven't bothered to look for further info about the MiG-23-98 upgrade and had in fact never heard of "Moskit" radars either : ) .

 

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Kopyo was planned as scalable pruduct, so one of the variants proposed initially was  a Super-Kopyo.

Exactly - although I have never heard of a variant called "super-kopyo".

Quote

Though it eventually boiled down to three variants.

1. The best and most expensive MiG-23-98-1 - N008 is replaced with Moskit-23 radar. I don't know what it's was based upon, though I'd like think its a derivative of Mig-29M's N010 Zhuk-radar.

From the table I could find it is slightly better than original Zhuk, having 90/60 km detection ranges and all multifunctional radar's bells and whistles.

Well thats the problem I have with this "Moskit-23" thing - I have looked around all the sources I usually consult and I have not been able to find much info it.....no actual technical descriptions of it other than a few lines of performance claims. I did manage to find a single small photo:

 

...which doesn't look anything like a Zhuk, but does resemble the Kopyo-M, so I wonder if its actually an "uptech'ed" version of this with a new name.....a "super Kopyo"?

 

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2. Less expensive (and really convoluted, IMO) MIG-23-98-2. Old Sapfir remains, but intsead there is a podded version of Moskit - Moskit-21K with not that great detection ranges. Though being MFR it allowed use of RVV-AE and A2G modes.

Again that sounds familiar - modernised version of Kopyo-25?

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3. Most cheap varaint - MiG-23-98-3. No new radar, old Sapfir-23 remains, but it gets a radiocorrection feauture and some tweaks in WCS allowing MiG to use RVV-AE missile.

Yes that would IMO also make more sense. I mean If the idea with the upgrade is to give countries who cannot afford buying new more capable fighters the ability to continiue operating their old MiG-23s, then a more modest cost effective approach involving upgrading the existing radar to use new weaponry seems more in line with the concept.

 

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As for cockpit - I coun't find any photos

No neither could I - execpt for a couple that are mislabelled as such(but are in fact the MiG-21-93 cockpit).

4 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

As a side note - this is how the MiG-21-93 cockpit looks like:

 

Thats the MiG-21-93 cockpit

Edited May 10, 2021 by Seaeagle

[1MajorKoenig]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Seaeagle:

Well thats the problem I have with this "Moskit-23" thing - I have looked around all the sources I usually consult and I have not been able to find much info it.....no actual technical descriptions of it other than a few lines of performance claims. I did manage to find a single small photo:

 

...which doesn't look anything like a Zhuk, but does resemble the Kopyo-M

The Moskit-23 is indeed reported to be a further development of the Kopyo Radar used in the MiG-21-93.

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Seaeagle:

Thats the MiG-21-93 cockpit

That is true and I intended it only for reference considering that the 23-98 upgrade option has a lot in common with the 21-93 upgrade including the radar family and supposedly the MFDs to improve the handling. Although the 23-98 is rumoured to use two MFDs rather than one.

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Seaeagle:

No neither could I - execpt for a couple that are mislabelled as such(but are in fact the MiG-21-93 cockpit).

Same here. And I start to question if the Refit was ever truely completed. The complete absence of photos is suspicious 

[Seaeagle]

21 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

The Moskit-23 is indeed reported to be a further development of the Kopyo Radar used in the MiG-21-93.

Ok thanks. I suspected as much and it also makes sense.

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That is true and I intended it only for reference considering that the 23-98 upgrade option has a lot in common with the 21-93 upgrade including the radar family and supposedly the MFDs to improve the handling.

Oh ok - yes thats true.

Quote

Although the 23-98 is rumoured to use two MFDs rather than one.

Yes I heard that too and IIRC the IAF operates upgraded MiG-27s with two MFDs, so perhaps the cockpit of this is an indication of what the MiG-23-98 pit would look like.

 

Edit: this photo is apparently the cockpit of an IAF upgraded MiG-27:

...only one large MFD.

Quote

Same here. And I start to question if the Refit was ever truely completed. The complete absence of photos is suspicious 

Indeed. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Seaeagle

[1MajorKoenig]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Seaeagle:

Yes I heard that too and IIRC the IAF operates upgraded MiG-27s with two MFDs, so perhaps the cockpit of this is an indication of what the MiG-23-98 pit would look like.

 

Edit: this photo is apparently the cockpit of an IAF upgraded MiG-27:

...only one large MFD

Thanks for the pic - I like it! And Considering how small the MiG-23/27 is this even makes a lot of sense...

 

The MiG-21-93 got one MFD as well. Do you know by chance what the small display device on the MiG-27 pic is and what it can do? Is it some sort of mini MFD? 
 

Btw here is a picture of the 29SMT cockpit - it has two of the large MFDs which may or may not have been used in the 23-98 upgrade program:

[Seaeagle]

15 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Thanks for the pic - I like it! And Considering how small the MiG-23/27 is this even makes a lot of sense...

 

The MiG-21-93 got one MFD as well.

Yeah I think it would be difficult to find room for more than the one there.

Quote

Do you know by chance what the small display device on the MiG-27 pic is and what it can do? Is it some sort of mini MFD? 

No I don't know, but I suspect it could be a dedicated threat display.

Quote

Btw here is a picture of the 29SMT cockpit - it has two of the large MFDs which may or may not have been used in the 23-98 upgrade program:

Yeah I know, but like I mentioned above, it doesn't look like there would be room for two of those in the MiG-23 cockpit.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Seaeagle

[Anduriel]

7 hours ago, Seaeagle said:

Yeah I think it would be difficult to find room for more than the one there.

 

 

Why not? Throw away all the clockwork and you can fit 3.

Here's my crude attempt:

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Anduriel

[1MajorKoenig]

Am 12.5.2021 um 19:53 schrieb Anduriel:

Why not? Throw away all the clockwork and you can fit 3.

Here's my crude attempt:

 

 

Yes ok. So if the intention was to add two MFDs - which clock instruments would they keep?

 

[1MajorKoenig]

One more thing: according to this article here, Angola received the MiG-23-98-2 Upgrade. Which is the one with the Moskit-21K radar and modern A2A missiles such as R-27 and R-77 (?). If that is true it is even more strange that I can’t find any photos of the upgraded cockpit on the internet? 
 

I mean if they exchange the radar they would certainly at least do a tiny little bit to the cockpit ergonomics as well no?
 

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/the-war-where-the-mig-23-demonstrated-its-high-potential-legacy-of-the-soviet-swept-wing-fighter

 

[1MajorKoenig]

Quick sketch - nothing real or anything just a sketch - what do you think?

 

[Xilon_x]

MIG 23 GERMAN SIDE

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Xilon_x

[1MajorKoenig]

Am 12.6.2021 um 20:11 schrieb Xilon_x:

MIG 23 GERMAN SIDE

 

 

 

 

Very Nice videos - although I have to admit they feel like from another era by now. The East German LSK had MFs and MLs. The camo looks pretty good though. 

 

Too bad though nobody has seen anything on the -98 upgrade from the cockpit inside. 
 

Does anyone know about the status on the rumoured Angolan MiG-23 upgrade (-98-3?) ?

Edited June 16, 2021 by 1MajorKoenig

[Zpigman]

Found this picture, possibly a model 2 or 3 refit where almost everything is the same.

[1MajorKoenig]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Zpigman:

Found this picture, possibly a model 2 or 3 refit where almost everything is the same.

Nice

 

The one to the right looks like the upgraded Indian MiG-27 ?
 

The one to the left looks new to me — do you know what this one is? Is it a 23? And is the display in the top right corner the same one from the old 29 models? Do you have any info which aircraft or from which airforce it is?

 

Cheers and thanks 

[Zpigman]

6 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Nice

 

The one to the right looks like the upgraded Indian MiG-27 ?
 

The one to the left looks new to me — do you know what this one is? Is it a 23? And is the display in the top right corner the same one from the old 29 models? Do you have any info which aircraft or from which airforce it is?

 

Cheers and thanks 

That's just it, I don't know, these were connected as a single post. I know the right picture was shown up above and that it is an upgraded Mig-27. The other one I have no reference for except that it at least started life as a Mig-23 or 27. I believe it to be a 23 but am unable to find more information. I posted it because I have no idea what it really is.

 

Edit: found more information, the one on the right is the IAF Mig-27 upgrade and the one on the left is pre upgrade. Sadly neither particularly the 98 refit. However there was apparently some talk about relaunching the 98 style rework for Syria’s fleet of 23s but it appeared that it went nowhere.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Zpigman
Found more information