LTWS MSI Implementation

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Hi, I noticed the following in the RDR ATTK display (updated OB, 12 Jun 2021):  When D/L, RWR and MSI are turned on but LTWS is turned off, RWS bricks and RWR contacts show up but not Offboard donor trackfiles, unless LTWS is turned on as well. Is this correct? My understanding is that LTWS simply "unveils" the Onboard trackfiles inherent in RWS bricks (see Wiki) and should be independent of Offboard trackfiles. Meaning RWS bricks are decluttered Onboard trackfiles and Offboard trackfiles should show as long as MSI and D/L are turned on (without having to turn on LTWS). The Wiki page also says DCS has got some of it wrong. Any comments? Thanks in advance.

Edited June 14, 2021 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Jak525]

Implementation in-game is totally incorrect. Wait for the eventual reworking of MSI.

 

You are correct about LTWS. For the MSI option, confusingly it is not actually supposed to toggle MSI. If you unbox MSI, the Az/El and SA formats are unchanged, and the TWS Attack format doesn't change. The only difference is in the RWS Attack. It, similar to LTWS, "unveils" non-radar trackfiles automatically (those contributed to by FF, SURV, PPLI, your FLIR in track, etc). So with MSI boxed the only hidden trackfiles are those with solely radar contribution. Reason for the MSI option is since RWS is mainly bricks on the Attack page, which are raw radar returns (NOT trackfiles), you want an indication of non-radar MSI tracks' existence.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Jak525

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

7 hours ago, Jak525 said:

Implementation in-game is totally incorrect. Wait for the eventual reworking of MSI.

 

You are correct about LTWS. For the MSI option, confusingly it is not actually supposed to toggle MSI. If you unbox MSI, the Az/El and SA formats are unchanged, and the TWS Attack format doesn't change. The only difference is in the RWS Attack. It, similar to LTWS, "unveils" non-radar trackfiles automatically (those contributed to by FF, SURV, PPLI, your FLIR in track, etc). So with MSI boxed the only hidden trackfiles are those with solely radar contribution. Reason for the MSI option is since RWS is mainly bricks on the Attack page, which are raw radar returns (NOT trackfiles), you want an indication of non-radar MSI tracks' existence.

 

Thanks. So if I understand correctly, the 'multi-source/sensor' in MSI actually excludes onboard and offboard radar contacts, the latter being left to LTWS to 'unveil'?

[Jak525]

57 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Thanks. So if I understand correctly, the 'multi-source/sensor' in MSI actually excludes onboard and offboard radar contacts, the latter being left to LTWS to 'unveil'?

Multi-Source Integration is totally different than the "MSI" toggle option on the ATTK>DATA sublevel.

 

MSI trackfiles include all Radar, FLIR, and Link 16,trackfiles. When you hear Radar it means onboard Radar because tracks from the Link can be from any source, in the end youre just receiving trackfile data thru the net from another aircraft/entity with sensors, doesn't matter if it's from your friend's Radar or anything else.

 

You are supposed to have (emphasis on supposed to; DCS is totally wrong at the moment) all MSI trackfiles displayed on the Attack, Az/El, and SA pretty much identically. MSI tracks are sensor-fuzed targets using the available sources.

 

Now with regard to display there is a very unique scenario in RWS only on the Attack format. Note this is only regarding display; the tracks still exist the same way, and are on the SA/AzEl.

 

Basically, in RWS, the goal on the Attack is to display a mostly decluttered picture of raw hits (bricks) and hide trackfiles. The bricks represent raw returns from your Radar. They're not MSI tracks. The Radar target information (which is represented visually by the bricks) is processed into MSI targets. They may be Radar-only or be correlated with other sources that the computer thinks are seeing the same target. E.g. you and a F/F donor are painting the same plane in the sky.

 

MSI didn't always exist. Early on the Hornet only had Radar trackfiles. As such, RWS was simple. Bricks were displayed unless you designate a track as the L&S by cycling Undesignate button, in which case the trackfile is shown. Here comes in the LTWS feature. LTWS is not a mode, but merely a display option. LTWS allows you to cursor over a raw hit and display the hidden trackfile without designating it. Basically a "preview" feature.

 

That's all fine and dandy, right? In a world without MSI, we only have Radar trackfiles so we can assume they exist and see where they are by seeing the raw bricks. Problem arises with MSI trackfiles. Imagine you have a F/F-only trackfile. How would you know it's there? There's no raw hits for something that isn't seen by the Radar.

 

Thus comes the solution: forcibly display any MSI trackfile with any contributor that isn't the Radar. Even if it has Radar, if it has other contribution it's also shown. The only truly hidden tracks are Radar-only. This logic, necessitated by MSI, can be toggled by the "MSI" option. So that's all that does.

 

I really didn't anticipate this post to be as long as it turned out to be...

Edited June 15, 2021 by Jak525

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

30 minutes ago, Jak525 said:

Multi-Source Integration is totally different than the "MSI" toggle option on the ATTK>DATA sublevel.

 

MSI trackfiles include all Radar, FLIR, and Link 16,trackfiles. When you hear Radar it means onboard Radar because tracks from the Link can be from any source, in the end youre just receiving trackfile data thru the net from another aircraft/entity with sensors, doesn't matter if it's from your friend's Radar or anything else.

 

You are supposed to have (emphasis on supposed to; DCS is totally wrong at the moment) all MSI trackfiles displayed on the Attack, Az/El, and SA pretty much identically. MSI tracks are sensor-fuzed targets using the available sources.

 

Now with regard to display there is a very unique scenario in RWS only on the Attack format. Note this is only regarding display; the tracks still exist the same way, and are on the SA/AzEl.

 

Basically, in RWS, the goal on the Attack is to display a mostly decluttered picture of raw hits (bricks) and hide trackfiles. The bricks represent raw returns from your Radar. They're not MSI tracks. The Radar target information (which is represented visually by the bricks) is processed into MSI targets. They may be Radar-only or be correlated with other sources that the computer thinks are seeing the same target. E.g. you and a F/F donor are painting the same plane in the sky.

 

MSI didn't always exist. Early on the Hornet only had Radar trackfiles. As such, RWS was simple. Bricks were displayed unless you designate a track as the L&S by cycling Undesignate button, in which case the trackfile is shown. Here comes in the LTWS feature. LTWS is not a mode, but merely a display option. LTWS allows you to cursor over a raw hit and display the hidden trackfile without designating it. Basically a "preview" feature.

 

That's all fine and dandy, right? In a world without MSI, we only have Radar trackfiles so we can assume they exist and see where they are by seeing the raw bricks. Problem arises with MSI trackfiles. Imagine you have a F/F-only trackfile. How would you know it's there? There's no raw hits for something that isn't seen by the Radar.

 

Thus comes the solution: forcibly display any MSI trackfile with any contributor that isn't the Radar. Even if it has Radar, if it has other contribution it's also shown. The only truly hidden tracks are Radar-only. This logic, necessitated by MSI, can be toggled by the "MSI" option. So that's all that does.

 

I really didn't anticipate this post to be as long as it turned out to be...

 

Thanks for the explanation. So LTWS is quite easy to understand when you explain it as a 'display option' or 'preview'. I'm beginning to get the concept of MSI more clearly as you have explained above, and as the name MSI implies.

Has ED indicated when they will fix the MSI feature in the Hornet? Thanks again.
 

[Jak525]

47 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Thanks for the explanation. So LTWS is quite easy to understand when you explain it as a 'display option' or 'preview'. I'm beginning to get the concept of MSI more clearly as you have explained above, and as the name MSI implies.

Has ED indicated when they will fix the MSI feature in the Hornet? Thanks again.
 

No problem. No, there is no timeline. Just cross your fingers and pray or something

[naizarak]

don't expect them to implement any of this.  seems like they're hellbent on wrapping up the hornet as quickly as possible and moving on to other projects

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

On 6/15/2021 at 5:11 PM, naizarak said:

don't expect them to implement any of this.  seems like they're hellbent on wrapping up the hornet as quickly as possible and moving on to other projects

That would be one glaring bugged key A2A feature of a so called sim.

[Shimmergloom667]

On 6/15/2021 at 11:11 AM, naizarak said:

don't expect them to implement any of this.  seems like they're hellbent on wrapping up the hornet as quickly as possible and moving on to other projects

 

That actually means them implementing this, tbh. It will certainly come.

[naizarak]

5 hours ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

 

That actually means them implementing this, tbh. It will certainly come.

what makes you think so?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

14 hours ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

 

That actually means them implementing this, tbh. It will certainly come.

Wasn't fixed in the most recent patch... fingers crossed though.

[Shimmergloom667]

11 hours ago, naizarak said:

what makes you think so?

 

Because unlike what you said there is no hint at them rushing stuff and not implementing stuff only to get the Hornet out of EA. Also even if they did, the Hornet will still be updated, even if it's shipped as "feature complete".

Until they say "we won't implement this or that for X, Y or Z reason" there is no reason to believe they won't.

(Also I am fairly certain that I read Bignewy commenting on one of the dozens of radar threads around that more MSI will be coming up, but I am entirely too lazy to look that up now)