AIM-120A

[Exorcet]

Originally the AIM-120A was in the list of weapons for the F-16, but at some point it was removed with no explanation given. Is there any chance that it might make it into the sim? While it might not be drastically different from the B model, it could be used to slightly tweak balance in mission design and also help in recreating historical scenarios.

[Tank50us]

That is a fairly good question, however given I asked about anti-ship weapons for the F-16, and the puritons came out of the woodworks to protest it, I doubt it would be added. That said, it would be kind of interesting to see the AIM120A added to DCS, since it was actually tested on the F-14 Tomcat, and if Heatblur could integrate it, that would be quite interesting. I'm aware that the USN never gave the Tomcat full AMRAAM capability, but the fact that the Tomcat was used as a testbed should speak volumes for the missile and the aircraft.

[Bunny Clark]

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

it would be kind of interesting to see the AIM120A added to DCS, since it was actually tested on the F-14 Tomcat, and if Heatblur could integrate it, that would be quite interesting.

I don't believe the AWG-9 is capable of AMRAAM guidance. We'd need an F-14D with the APG-71 to even have a shot at a plausible integration. 

[KlarSnow]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:F-14_carrying_AMRAAM.jpg

This is a test F-14A with an AWG-9 and an AIM-120

 

It was capable of it if modified to support it. The APG-71 was not necessary or required for that integration.

 

[Tank50us]

23 minutes ago, KlarSnow said:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:F-14_carrying_AMRAAM.jpg

This is a test F-14A with an AWG-9 and an AIM-120

 

It was capable of it if modified to support it. The APG-71 was not necessary or required for that integration.

 

 

exactly. It's just that the Navy never thought they'd need to have the Tomcats have AMRAAM capability when they had the Phoenix. The way I could see it in DCS however is that because the computer wouldn't know it's an AMRAAM without the modifications, it would likely treat it as a Phoenix, and therefor, if you had a 2-2-4 load, the computer would likely think it had 6 Phoenix missiles attached instead of the 4 it actually had.

[Northstar98]

Best place for the AIM-120A is if we get an early 90s F-16C, such as an F-16CG Block 40 or even an initial F-16CJ Block 50/50D. I'm fairly sure the AIM-120A was quickly replaced by the AIM-120B, and for the timeframe of our F-16CM (2007/2008), I doubt they would've been in the inventory, when the AIM-120C-5 is around (which entered service in the early 2000s).

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Northstar98

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, Tank50us said:

exactly. It's just that the Navy never thought they'd need to have the Tomcats have AMRAAM capability when they had the Phoenix.

 

Even so, the Tomcat had to be fitted with a special adaptor for it, and no version of the AIM-120 was ever operational on any F-14 AFAIK and production F-14s couldn't fire it, and even if they could it still wasn't an operational fit for the Tomcat by any means.

 

EDIT: It doesn't seem that production F-14A/B and Ds had the ability to fire it (or even carry it), at least according to this. It was only those very few test aircraft that could (and I'm not sure to what extent).

Edited July 4, 2021 by Northstar98

[Tank50us]

47 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Even so, the Tomcat had to be fitted with a special adaptor for it, and no version of the AIM-120 was ever operational on any F-14 AFAIK and production F-14s couldn't fire it, and even if they could it still wasn't an operational fit for the Tomcat by any means.

 

EDIT: It doesn't seem that production F-14A/B and Ds had the ability to fire it (or even carry it), at least according to this. It was only those very few test aircraft that could (and I'm not sure to what extent).

 

 

Well the F-14 was never equipped to carry the nearly two dozen Mk82s either, only one was ever tested with a set of experimental racks, and that was it. So it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to envision, and would further separate the A/Late and B from the Early A and Iranian Tomcats if those modified racks could be modeled and the functionality added. I'm not asking for the AIM120C5 that we have on the Hornets mind you, I'm just saying it would be interesting if the Tomcat we have in DCS could use the AMRAAM-As due to the fact that the aircraft (an A model no less) was used to test the AMRAAM in the first place.

 

Like I said, the USN had the option, so the kits were likely built and ready to be sent to the fleet, but from what I understand, the idea was shelved. So at least as far as 'fictional' loads go, at least this one has some basis in reality.

[Northstar98]

28 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Well the F-14 was never equipped to carry the nearly two dozen Mk82s either, only one was ever tested with a set of experimental racks, and that was it.

 

Are you sure about that? For our ones they were cleared for dumb bombs in the early 90s (and our Tomcats are mid-to-late-ish 90s), and AFAIK they always had the SMS for bombs, and always had the AG mode for them. They just weren't cleared for them until the early 90s.

 

 

And even if this one is a test aircraft, we already know that it had the requisite SMS and AG mode basically from the get go AFAIK.

 

So it's much less of a stretch than adding a weapon that was never operational at all, outside of a couple of test aircraft, with incredibly hazy capabilities as to what they can actually do with the AIM-120.

 

As for the MAK-79 racks, I'm not sure, I can find at least 3 aircraft fitted with them (though one might be Iranian).

Edited July 4, 2021 by Northstar98

[Tank50us]

I meant operationally, and I'm talking specifically about the racks seen in the second picture there (which took a while to be modeled in game despite the load already being there). Those racks were never equipped to operational Tomcats, I'm sorry if I caused some confusion given that we all know that BombCats were very much a thing.

[Northstar98]

Just now, Tank50us said:

I meant operationally, and I'm talking specifically about the racks seen in the second picture there (which took a while to be modeled in game despite the load already being there). Those racks were never equipped to operational Tomcats, I'm sorry if I caused some confusion given that we all know that BombCats were very much a thing.

 

Ahh, I see, I can only find 3 Tomcats with these racks (MAK-79?), though the first 2 might be the same aircraft with a different livery and the other might be Iranian.

[Tank50us]

Just now, Northstar98 said:

 

Ahh, I see, I can only find 3 Tomcats with these racks (MAK-79?), though the first 2 might be the same aircraft with a different livery and the other might be Iranian.

 

Maybe. Who knows. Either way, I still think it would be and interesting option to have, since the AMRAAM As basically operated like Baby Phoenixes, so tactically you'd use them the same way as you would a Phoenix, you'd just be firing at much shorter ranges than the Phoenix since the As had what? a 40mi max range under perfect conditions? That's uncomfortably close to the AMRAAMski range.

[G.J.S]

It was a Radar change that would have enabled carriage of the AIM-120 missile, and that radar (AN/APG-73) was only going to be available for the F-14D.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-NSIAD-95-12/html/GAOREPORTS-NSIAD-95-12.htm

 

The link is to a GAO report compiled in 1994, detailing the requirements and anticipated benefits and issues, also the relevance given the other platforms capabilities.

Edited July 4, 2021 by G.J.S

[Seaeagle]

4 hours ago, G.J.S said:

It was a Radar change that would have enabled carriage of the AIM-120 missile, and that radar (AN/APG-73) was only going to be available for the F-14D.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-NSIAD-95-12/html/GAOREPORTS-NSIAD-95-12.htm

 

The link is to a GAO report compiled in 1994, detailing the requirements and anticipated benefits and issues, also the relevance given the other platforms capabilities.

 

I think you misunderstood that a little :) . 

 

The report was actually all about evaluating the usefulness of upgrading F-14s(all variants) with further A/G capability as an interim solution for the period between scheduled retiring of the A6 fleet to induction of F/A-18E/F, where the conclusion was that it wouldn't be worth the cash because;

 

- only the F-14D had a radar(APG-71) with A/G mapping modes to support it, while F-14A/B with AWG-9 would still be limited to daylight/good weather conditions after the upgrade.

- the added A/G capability would still be less than what the F/A-18C already had back then

- the F-14 A/G upgrade couldn't realistically be operational before the F/A-18E entered service anyway.

 

It dosesn't say anything about AMRAAMs in relation to F-14A/B(with AWG-9), but just that the navy planned to induct the AIM-120 on F-14Ds after a computer upgrade had been performed on their existing APG-71 radar.....but as we know now, that never materialised.

[Seaeagle]

On 7/3/2021 at 2:37 PM, Exorcet said:

Originally the AIM-120A was in the list of weapons for the F-16, but at some point it was removed with no explanation given. Is there any chance that it might make it into the sim? While it might not be drastically different from the B model, it could be used to slightly tweak balance in mission design and also help in recreating historical scenarios.

Not much - IIRC the AIM-120A had a very short production run(a little over a year or something) before being superceeded by the reprogrammable AIM-120B. So from a historical perspective, it has imited value IMO.

[G.J.S]

1 hour ago, Seaeagle said:

I think you misunderstood that a little . 

 

The report was actually all about evaluating the usefulness of upgrading F-14s(all variants) with further A/G capability as an interim solution for the period between scheduled retiring of the A6 fleet to induction of F/A-18E/F, where the conclusion was that it wouldn't be worth the cash because;

 

- only the F-14D had a radar(APG-71) with A/G mapping modes to support it, while F-14A/B with AWG-9 would still be limited to daylight/good weather conditions after the upgrade.

- the added A/G capability would still be less than what the F/A-18C already had back then

- the F-14 A/G upgrade couldn't realistically be operational before the F/A-18E entered service anyway.

 

It dosesn't say anything about AMRAAMs in relation to F-14A/B(with AWG-9), but just that the navy planned to induct the AIM-120 on F-14Ds after a computer upgrade had been performed on their existing APG-71 radar.....but as we know now, that never materialised.

I didn’t misunderstand anything, the link I provided was solely to show what loads are/can be carried and what can’t and why.

An F-14D with ground mapping modes has little to do with AIM-120 compatibility, and as in the doc, the radar would be swapped out to gain AMRAAM capability, thus losing its -71 for the -73 which is essentially what comes out the Hornet, which was the cheaper option compared to making the -71 compatible with AMRAAM.

The link was the first google result, but in the past I have seen many more docs relating to this, as at the time the RAF were looking on in interest due to changes within the service regarding acquisitions.

And correct, it doesn’t say anything about AMRAAM’s in relation to the F-14A/B with the AWG-9, which was the whole point of my posting the link due to the running desire people have to integrate the AIM-120 onto the Tomcat in sim.

So I believe you misunderstood me?

 

Switches safe - out.

[Seaeagle]

1 hour ago, G.J.S said:

I didn’t misunderstand anything, the link I provided was solely to show what loads are/can be carried and what can’t and why.

 

Yes I get that mate, but...

1 hour ago, G.J.S said:

An F-14D with ground mapping modes has little to do with AIM-120 compatibility, and as in the doc, the radar would be swapped out to gain AMRAAM capability, thus losing its -71 for the -73 which is essentially what comes out the Hornet, which was the cheaper option compared to making the -71 compatible with AMRAAM.

...the doc says nothing about swapping out F-14 radars(wether AWG-9 or APG-71) for the APG-73. Nor would that make much sense as it would seriously sacrifice air-to-air radar performance - unless modified with a much larger antenna, more powerful emitter etc.....which in turn I cannot imagine being any cheaper than to modify the APG-71 to support the AMRAAM directly.

 

So I still think you misunderstood something in the document :)

 

[G.J.S]

11 minutes ago, Seaeagle said:

 

Yes I get that mate, but...

...the doc says nothing about swapping out F-14 radars(wether AWG-9 or APG-71) for the APG-73. Nor would that make much sense as it would seriously sacrifice air-to-air radar performance - unless modified with a much larger antenna, more powerful emitter etc.....which in turn I cannot imagine being any cheaper than to modify the APG-71 to support the AMRAAM directly.

 

So I still think you misunderstood something in the document

 

 . . . . . . Deleted the directions to the references. . . . . . 

Edited July 4, 2021 by G.J.S
I’m tired of arguing, not enough Jack left in the bottle.