Shilka opens fire at range without RWR notification

[twistking]

In the A-10C (2) i noticed that Shilkas can open fire at you at maximum range without you getting an RWR indication.

RWR indication will eventually pop up, if you get closer.

For me this does not make sense, because i'd guess that a Shilka would use it's radar especially when firing at range.

I only tested in the A-10c because it's the only full fidelity module with a reliable RWR that i own.

 

Tested on stable branch, a-10c 2, caucassus, daylight, weather preset: overcast+rain 1

 

I don't know if this is a bug or a feature, but i'm sure that behaviour was different a while back.

[twistking]

Quote

The RPK-2 "Tobol" a.k.a. 1RL33 radar operates in the Ku band and can detect aircraft up to 20 km (12 mi) away. It has excellent target tracking capability and is relatively hard to detect by the enemy.

(wikipedia)

 

Could it be, that the A-10Cs RWR simply cannot detect the shilkas radar until it is close?

[twistking]

the F-5 picks up the shilka as expected.

[twistking]

i think, that the problem mght be, that a-10Cs RWR only picks up Shilka when its radar has archieved lock, while the F-5e (and others i assume) also picks up the Shilka in Search/Track.

[twistking]

could a moderator please move this to the appropriate section? this would either be f-5 or a-10c (2), which depends on which implementation is faulty.

[Northstar98]

19 hours ago, twistking said:

i think, that the problem mght be, that a-10Cs RWR only picks up Shilka when its radar has archieved lock, while the F-5e (and others i assume) also picks up the Shilka in Search/Track.

 

I didn't think the DCS' Shilka's RADAR even had it's acquisition mode modelled?

 

IRL (AFAIK) it should have an acquisition mode, and a track/fire control mode, I'm pretty sure it can even be rotated and elevated independently to the turret in the acquisition mode but don't hold me to that.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Northstar98

[twistking]

17 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

I didn't even think the DCS Shilka's RADAR even had it's acquisition mode?

 

It should have an acquisition mode, and a track/fire control mode.

 

If my memory serves me right, the A-10c used to get two RWR beeps when getting in range of a shilka. First beep when getting into the "sensor zone" and another beep when getting into engagement zone with the shilka usually becoming priority threat, so i'm pretty sure that the shilka is modelled with at least two radar modes.

This would also easily explain the difference between F-5 and A-10c (2). I assume that the bug is the A-10C's RWR wrongfully ignoring the shilka's radar in acquisition mode.

Edited September 22, 2021 by twistking

[Tank50us]

Last time I checked, in the real world, the Radar can be used for just search, and the gunner can use optical sights to actually aim the gun.

 

 

[Northstar98]

38 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Last time I checked, in the real world, the Radar can be used for just search, and the gunner can use optical sights to actually aim the gun.

 

It has a load of different firing modes if I'm recalling correctly, I'll put them down below:

 

Spoiler

1. Fully automatic - RADAR tracks the target in both angle and range, and automatically lays the guns.
2. Semi-automatic - target tracked manually using the optical sights.
3. Memory mode - in the case of a lost-track, obviously this will only work with a target of constant range-rate, elevation-rate and azimuth-rate, and not sure how long it works for (I guess until the RADAR reacquires, or until it's manually reset), guns are again laid automatically.
4. Manual - just using optics, guns laid manually (this is what we have in DCS, at least when a player is driving)
5. Ground targets (presumably this uses a different reticle for the optics, and/or the FCS only provides elevation for bullet-drop, maybe the RADAR provides ranging, maybe the range can be entered manually).
6. Emergency (I guess this is a completely manual mode, but unsure what the difference is for 4).

 

As for the acquisition mode, apparently the RADAR mechanically scans a vertical 2x15° sector, and can be rotated independently to the turret (so, AFAIK it should nod up and down).

 

In DCS, it always points in the same direction as the guns, even when tracking a target moving perpendicularly (where you'd expect the guns to lead the RADAR), so it might be that the FCS and RADAR aren't really modelled at all, and it just uses AI magic, using the 4th firing mode and the RWRs approximate RADAR use).

 

Not sure what's happening in twistking's case, best bet it's an issue with the RWRs in respective modules, as I don't think the fidelity of the Shilka's FCS and RADAR are actually modelled.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Northstar98

[Tank50us]

1 minute ago, Northstar98 said:

 

It has a load of different firing modes if I'm recalling correctly, I'll put them down below:

 

  Hide contents

1. Fully automatic - RADAR tracks the target in both angle and range, and automatically lays the guns.
2. Semi-automatic - target tracked manually using the optical sights.
3. Memory mode - in the case of a lost-track, obviously this will only work with a target of constant range-rate, elevation-rate and azimuth-rate, and not sure how long it works for (I guess until the RADAR reacquires, or until it's manually reset), guns are again laid automatically.
4. Manual - just using optics, guns laid manually (this is what we have in DCS)
5. Ground targets (presumably this just uses a different reticle, or the FCS only provides elevation for bullet-drop)
6. Emergency (I guess this is a completely manual mode, but unsure what the difference is for 4).

 

As for the acquisition mode, apparently the RADAR mechanically scans a vertical 2x15° sector, and can be rotated independently to the turret (so it should nod up and down- AFAIK in DCS, it always points in the same direction as the guns, even when tracking a target moving perpendicularly (where you'd expect the guns to lead the RADAR), so it might be that the FCS and RADAR aren't really modelled at all, and it just uses AI magic, and the RWRs approximate it).

 

Not sure what's happening in twistkings case, best bet it's an issue with the RWRs in respective modules.

 

Maybe it's a happy accident that a bug in the game allows it to simulate one of the firing modes XD

[twistking]

14 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

 

Maybe it's a happy accident that a bug in the game allows it to simulate one of the firing modes XD

I honestly did consider that this was intentionally and the AI was just trying to be sneaky. With this issue the shilka is now indeed a little bit more dangerous for the A-10C as you only get an indication when the shilka has already blurped out its first salvo.

But the illusion of "feature" falls apart quickly when you notice that it does not make sense in most cases. Shilkas will still fire at max range instead of waiting a bit for a better chance to hit and they will fire without the RWR indication when you are clearly attacking them and there wouldn't be any need to be sneaky but every need to get the best firing solution.

So it should definitely be fixed (i now simply assume that the A-10Cs RWR is off and the F-5Es RWR performs as expected). Maybe they could add an option for AAA to be more conservative with radar usage in a "smart" way to give some more lethality to the shilka, but keeping a bug for its potential to badly emulate a feature is not a good idea i think...

Edited September 22, 2021 by twistking

[Northstar98]

49 minutes ago, twistking said:

I honestly did consider that this was intentionally and the AI was just trying to be sneaky. With this issue the shilka is now indeed a little bit more dangerous for the A-10C as you only get an indication when the shilka has already blurped out its first salvo.

But the illusion of "feature" falls apart quickly when you notice that it does not make sense in most cases. Shilkas will still fire at max range instead of waiting a bit for a better chance to hit and they will fire without the RWR indication when you are clearly attacking them and there wouldn't be any need to be sneaky but every need to get the best firing solution.

So it should definitely be fixed (i now simply assume that the A-10Cs RWR is off and the F-5Es RWR performs as expected). Maybe they could add an option for AAA to be more conservative with radar usage in a "smart" way to give some more lethality to the shilka, but keeping a bug for its potential to badly emulate a feature is not a good idea i think...

 

Personally, if they upped the fidelity of the Shilka's RADAR and FCS, and then made the RWRs consistent, then it wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

Because AFAIK, the RADAR for the Shilka isn't functional at all besides triggering RWRs (the acquisition mode doesn't seem to be present and the RADAR doesn't track the target it's tracking), FCS is just done by the AI operator.

 

EDIT: There isn't even a seperate animation for it, so the model can't support it either.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Northstar98