TWS-M to TWS-A Transition

[Sumoman]

Hello All!

 

While doing some CAP on PGAW today my pilot and I had some targets lined up in TWS-M. When we fired the first AIM-54 the WCS automatically transitioned to TWS-A as expected however we noticed that right after the transition the tracks built in TWS-M were immediately lost. As a result of the transition our first shot was trashed immediately despite TWS-A finding the same targets albeit as "new" tracks. This was completely unexpected as past behavior seamlessly transitioned tracks from TWS-M to TWS-A.

 

1) Have any other RIOs noticed this behavior?

2) Am I misunderstanding the functionality in the automatic transition between TWS-M to TWS-A?

 

Any observations would be helpful.

 

Thanks

Edited September 24, 2021 by Sumoman

[DSplayer]

Immediately? That probably could mean that they were about to get lost in TWS Manual prior to the missile being shot. I personally haven't had this issue since I usually transition to TWS Auto prior to firing the shot so I can maintain track with the automatic antenna elevation. What could help is maybe marking some targets you don't want to hit as 'Do Not Attack' (if you don't do this already) so the WCS doesn't wing the radar to them to try to pick them up.

[DoorMouse]

This always drops tracks for us, even on non-maneuvering targets.  its a major annoyance. 

 

It seems to be much worse on multiplayer with many players. My hypothesis is that the AWG 9 has a very sensitive requirement to "hold" a track and needs constant updates that heavy multiplayer servers cannot provide - So your local simulation thinks it has lost the track, when really it is that the MP data hasnt gotten to you yet, or is the wrong tick-rate, or there was just a temporary network slowdown/loss. 

 

Switching to TWS Auto is a partial work-around sometimes - It seems to work better-  but it shouldn't have to be. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by DoorMouse

[DSplayer]

8 hours ago, DoorMouse said:

This always drops tracks for us, even on non-maneuvering targets.  its a major annoyance. 

 

It seems to be much worse on multiplayer with many players. My hypothesis is that the AWG 9 has a very sensitive requirement to "hold" a track and needs constant updates that heavy multiplayer servers cannot provide - So your local simulation thinks it has lost the track, when really it is that the MP data hasnt gotten to you yet, or is the wrong tick-rate, or there was just a temporary network slowdown/loss. 

 

Switching to TWS Auto is a partial work-around sometimes - It seems to work better-  but it shouldn't have to be. 

 

Also the desync between RIO and Pilot causes some issues as well. When I play the 14 by myself, I never experience dropped tracks unless the target is going into the notch or other but if you're RIOing for someone who doesn't have the best internet in the world or if you're playing on a server that is inadequate, you will experience drop tracks a lot more often than if you're by yourself.

[DoorMouse]

18 hours ago, DSplayer said:

Also the desync between RIO and Pilot causes some issues as well. When I play the 14 by myself, I never experience dropped tracks unless the target is going into the notch or other but if you're RIOing for someone who doesn't have the best internet in the world or if you're playing on a server that is inadequate, you will experience drop tracks a lot more often than if you're by yourself.

This is my anecdotal experience as well.  I feel like the radar needs to be less sensitive to network issues. I hypothesize what is happening to be that the real radar has a refresh rate and sometimes the network data runs afoul of that.  

 

I also still get issues where the hud will lock things and the diamond is somewhere nonsensical.

 

They did a great job syncing the TCS with pilot and Rio in the last patch, I'm hoping these are solvable too. 

[Noctrach]

This has nothing to do with desync or multiplayer.

 

It's happening on straight-flying targets exactly as @Sumoman says. The very instant you switch from TWS-M to TWS-A, be it manual or by firing a missile, the AWG-9 loses the original track and puts a new track on top of the false one.

 

You can even "toggle" false track status by switching between TWS-M and TWS-A as shown below (singleplayer)

 

Note: After some testing I can tell this only happens on reasonably tight multiship formations.

In the video below you see a 2-ship of Su-24Ms flying towards my jet. They correllate to two separate tracks at about 70 miles in TWS-M.

However, TWS-A gets utterly confused by this situation at the same distance, correllating BOTH tracks as false even though it keeps updating them all the way in.

Then at around 40 miles it will suddenly decide it was only a single contact all along...

 

 

@IronMike Could you move this thread to the bug forum please? This is definitely not right.

Right now the only way to do a TWS shot is to switch to TWS-A, sym delete the old tracks and wait for the AWG-9 to HOPEFULLY correllate the bandits you wanted to launch on.

 

Combined with the PD-STT bug where it cannot hold a lock if the sum of antenna azimuth, elevation and roll exceeds a certain value and the AWG-9 is just about useless outside of 25 miles.

Adding a video of this as well just to round out the full scope of AWG-9 weirdness I'm seeing.

 

The F-14 has all the makings of a fantastic module, but to be very blunt, the AWG-9 right now is utterly fucked.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Noctrach

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, Noctrach said:

...

 

Done, and thank you. I will take a closer look later today.

[QuiGon]

On 10/5/2021 at 12:01 PM, Noctrach said:

 The very instant you switch from TWS-M to TWS-A, be it manual or by firing a missile, the AWG-9 loses the original track and puts a new track on top of the false one.

 

I can confirm this. The first time you switch from TWS-M to TWS-A after spawning in a new jet, the tracks get trashed and with it the Phoenix you may have launched. This is really frustrating!

[Noctrach]

Firstly: Awesome patch!

The TWS-M/A transition actually works fine now. In fact, I believe what I was seeing was an unfortunate combination of two close-flying targets drifting in and out of the res cell combined with my own error in interpreting the centroid marker appearing in TWS-A as a false track designation.

After today's patch I'm happy to say that TWS is in fact, extremely stable!

 

PD-STT is still showing the same issues and is unfortunately still unreliable as a result

[chichowalker]

On 10/10/2021 at 9:54 PM, QuiGon said:

 

I can confirm this. The first time you switch from TWS-M to TWS-A after spawning in a new jet, the tracks get trashed and with it the Phoenix you may have launched. This is really frustrating!

Yesterday, after a collition with my wingan entering in cockpit in forrestal and respawned again, I think this problem still persists. Was a network mission with landing for rearming, 12 phoenix launched and only 4 kills. With targets hot, without maneuvering, after shooting, contact with missile in flight was lost and a new contact appeared inmediatelly in same position, losing most of the missiles. I have to review this issue in next mission. 

[Noctrach]

I'm also intermittently seeing missiles no longer go active or try to intercept when tracks break. Instead the phoenix will go stupid/ballistic (1.0G level flight) as TWS-M continues to try and keep the centroid on the dead track until it times out.

[captain_dalan]

SP test only for now, all on BVR instant actions, Marianas and Persian Gulf. No issue with transitions as longs as Jester is in the back. Haven't tried with a human RIO.