mirage doing tail slide?

[Pilotasso]

Hehe, guess not, as if you would had actually read what he wrote, we would had been :D

Pilotasso clearly does not understand the concept behind acronym AOA. Sure you can pretend he actually meant 'high', he will jump in and say that he indeed meant that, but anyone can pretty much see that what he talks is a few big words mixed with a very poor understanding of the topic :)

 

Go back and read again. Its seems to me your more worried about my big words rather than the discussion.

 

RHEN and RedTiger got it the first time^^^^^^, sure so can you.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Pilotasso

[Teknetinium]

Compere our thoughts to F-22, if this tactics was working rather only BVR or unclimb the bandit, Americans would use Black bird, much better choice.

but missiles miss and u need to get down to hig AOA in the end its proven.

 

same go for Russians If this tactics was working Im sure they would demonstrate design more like Mig-31 not like su-47.

Its seems that 5gen air crafts are compensating speed for high AOA.

 

Don'T take me wrong F-22 unclimbed any fighter, but still they sacrificed a lot of speed and altitude for hig-AOA.

Its not same thinking as it was back then in Mig-25/F-14 times where speed = Live.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

If your high on AOA it means your slow on speed and missiles will see you as if your standing still. Not a very difficult target to catch. ;)

Running away as fast as you can is the tactic that will make you survive a missile tactic, sure hell not going merge with missiles (just fraction of sec before they detonate anyway). thats crazy.

 

The F-22 has been high altitude optimized. where are you getting all this stuff from? :huh:

Edited November 21, 2008 by Pilotasso

[RedTiger]

Hehe, guess not, as if you would had actually read what he wrote, we would had been :D

Pilotasso clearly does not understand the concept behind acronym AOA. Sure you can pretend he actually meant 'high', he will jump in and say that he indeed meant that, but anyone can pretty much see that what he talks is a few big words mixed with a very poor understanding of the topic :)

 

What in the world are talking you about? You've lost me completely.

 

Dude, this WHOLE THREAD is about 'high' AOA. We don't have to pretend Pilotasso was talking about high AoA, we know it since he's discussing it in a thread where that happens to be the topic. "Being on the same page" was a reference to your post directly and others indirectly. I totally understand what Pilotasso's saying and I agree. ;)

 

High AoA can be good and it has its place, but its not always optimal. It is my personal opinion that its not all its cracked up to be. To me its like completely ignoring the other dimention you have to manuever in and focusing on one, at all costs, even if it kills you. You don't have to out-rate someone to get on their six. It helps, but not if it will get you killed too.

 

So again, I ask, are we all on the same page?

Edited November 21, 2008 by RedTiger

[Pilotasso]

c'mon vati, explain to us :)

[Beaker_VBA]

Rhen-

 

 

I'll rep you when I can for making the first intelligent and informed post in this topic. There is no East/West bias in the air, only winners and losers. :)

 

 

Pound for pound, the F-22 seems to be the most deadly aircraft out there. But any aircraft not flown in its deadliest envelope is ineffective. Yeah, teknetinium, most WVR fights will go to low-speed (.: high AOA) maneuvering if allowed. The key here is that pilots have a choice to trust their rate, or spend their airspeed on angles. A smart pilot in an aircraft that CAN out-rate, will choose to out-rate. The idea behind TVN in the Raptor is creating an all-around air dominance platform. If the need arises, it's there. A good pilot won't go there unless he absolutely must, and in that situation, the USAF has prepared him well.

 

 

 

This is why I get so worked up over internet battles about who can perform a fancier stall. There's so much obsession with thrust vectoring and post-stall maneuvering. The aircraft is built around the pilot, not the engine nozzles.

 

 

Where I'm going, stalling is a sin! :lol:

[Vati]

What in the world are talking you about? You've lost me completely.

Hehe, for the 3rd time now... I was commenting on Pilotasso's #47 post in this topic, which is full of funny bits if you actually read what it is written and not what it is "supposed to be" written :)

Sure, you can go on and tell me how stupid and ignorant of me that I am not able to see the "real" meaning, etc.

But if someone is preaching to others (you must understand that not all readers understand/are at same level of knowledge), like he is, he should write correct and clear. Don't you think? Or is this just some 1337 fighter pilot sp33k? :)

 

Do you think it is acceptable to write... for an example: "Speed is bad for maneuvering. This is something that escapes some of the people here"

 

But it is not just that he misused the AoA acronym, there are other gems too... anyways...

 

P.S. Please do not start putting again your words into my mouth how I am not getting what are consequences of high AoA.

 

c'mon vati, explain to us :)

Buy my sim and check yourself if I grasp the concept of aerodynamics ;)

[Pilotasso]

Vati, you barely grasp half the conversation here, how can you imply my own messages to have a meaning different than the one I gave? There is no between the lines reading, its straight forward unless your playing dumb.

 

You dont grasp aerodynamics because I have an engineering degree and work with actual aircraft not model kits, its not just leet arm chair pilot crap. You never say anything usefull on the matter but to launch suspicions. Worse: you completely missquoted me above on purpose.

 

Im still wayting you to explain it to me instead of playing possum or giving us a handfull of nothing.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Pilotasso

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Therefore wich one can make higher AOA is largely pointless on itself.

He, he, he ... How funny is this indeed.

[Pilotasso]

You guys just should form up a rugby team :D

 

The missquote-to-distort team. :P

Edited November 23, 2008 by Pilotasso

[RedTiger]

 

Do you think it is acceptable to write... for an example: "Speed is bad for maneuvering. This is something that escapes some of the people here"

 

Wow....grats on looking silly. He never wrote that. Post 47 in its entirety:

 

AOA is bad for maneuvering. This is something that escapes some of the people here. AOA for snapshots is another thing but you pay a price for it.

 

Everytime you pull high alfa maneuvers you are spending energy for nose placement. if your AOA is low the better. Therefore wich one can make higher AOA is largely pointless on itself.

 

 

BTW RT, the way I took it was the way I said because thats the standard procedure (at least in the west) for preventing surge and engine stall at take off (not to mention controlability) because the other aircraft engines leave a wirpol of gases that takes time to dissipate. If theres debris on the runway there will be no way to tell no matter how much waiting time the next plane on the ramp does, because there wont be anybody there to remove it. Do you see the inconsistency here?

The fear the engines were to be sent to russia makes sense either way.

 

cheers.

 

If you honestly think what I bolded is "leet speak" or you cannot understand what he's saying, not what he intended to say, what he ACTUALLY said...you're beyond help on this one, man.

 

Why don't you explain what is wrong with what he said? You have yet to do that. Until then, you have no credibility.

 

By the way, there is not one little thing incorrect about what he said. Not one. All of it is 100% truth.

Edited November 23, 2008 by RedTiger

[RedTiger]

Rhen-

 

 

I'll rep you when I can for making the first intelligent and informed post in this topic. There is no East/West bias in the air, only winners and losers. :)

 

The funny part is that this argument is nothing but East vs. West. It can be sugar coated, but it is what it is. The minute you say something negative about high AoA, take note of who disagrees. Also take note what aircraft preference they have, East or West.

 

This is in no way one-sided. Bring up something negative about the Raptor and then also take note of who responds and what their aircraft preference is.

 

My observation is that in these little spats there's usually a clear difference on who seems to be able to back up their argument and who just posts things that try to either try to detract from credibility or make the other person look stupid rather than presenting an argument of their own.

[Teknetinium]

Rhen-

 

 

I'll rep you when I can for making the first intelligent and informed post in this topic. There is no East/West bias in the air, only winners and losers. :)

 

 

Pound for pound, the F-22 seems to be the most deadly aircraft out there. But any aircraft not flown in its deadliest envelope is ineffective. Yeah, teknetinium, most WVR fights will go to low-speed (.: high AOA) maneuvering if allowed. The key here is that pilots have a choice to trust their rate, or spend their airspeed on angles. A smart pilot in an aircraft that CAN out-rate, will choose to out-rate. The idea behind TVN in the Raptor is creating an all-around air dominance platform. If the need arises, it's there. A good pilot won't go there unless he absolutely must, and in that situation, the USAF has prepared him well.

 

 

 

This is why I get so worked up over internet battles about who can perform a fancier stall. There's so much obsession with thrust vectoring and post-stall maneuvering. The aircraft is built around the pilot, not the engine nozzles.

 

 

Where I'm going, stalling is a sin! :lol:

 

 

Exactly the one who has highest AOA doesn't need to be the one who will bleed most speed if he doesnt want to.

[GGTharos]

You mean the one who can achieve the highest AoA, because the guy WITH the highest AoA is definitely aerobraking more than the other guy ;)

[Pilotasso]

:huh:

Exactly the one who has highest AOA doesn't need to be the one who will bleed most speed if he doesnt want to.

 

Only in the vacuum of space. Unfortunatly for you we are in dense atmosfere ;)

 

omg...

[Pilotasso]

:)

[nscode]

You mean the one who can achieve the highest AoA, because the guy WITH the highest AoA is definitely aerobraking more than the other guy ;)

 

 

Unless it's an F-35 and it opens up the fan and shifts it in reverse to counter the braking :D

[Teknetinium]

:huh:

 

 

Only in the vacuum of space. Unfortunatly for you we are in dense atmosfere ;)

 

omg...

 

 

Pilotasso ur argument just dont hold, if mig-29/Su-27 or F-18 pull not more then 25 degrees Im sure they will be able to save the speed they need.

But if F-16 deside to pull 45 degrees u can forget it, so I put my money on F-18.

 

Get out of ur vacuum and stop be that ignorant.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

Tek get your act together or else Ill just start to ignore you like others do. Your completely clueless at this point, yet you do not refrain from calling others ignorant. Your making a fool out of youself.

[Groove]

Could you guys sort personal stuff out using PMs? Thanks.

[Vati]

You dont grasp aerodynamics because I have an engineering degree and work with actual aircraft not model kits, its not just leet arm chair pilot crap.

LOL, sir, you are funny... who said anything about model kits? wtf..

As for your 'engineering degree' .. good for you, tho I am sorry for your employer... however on the bright side, you must have one degree in psychics as well to know what I have and what I do not and what I have done or not in the field of aviation :D

 

Wow....grats on looking silly. He never wrote that.

LOL, where did I say he wrote that? Thanks for showing how you have also reading comprehension problems.

What I had written with that sentence is to show how stupid it is. It's same as what he wrote. I only substituted AoA with Speed. It's exact same oxymoron. :)

 

Thx again for a barrel of laughs... have a nice week.

Sorry Groove, it wont happen again :)

[RedTiger]

LOL, sir, you are funny... who said anything about model kits? wtf..

As for your 'engineering degree' .. good for you, tho I am sorry for your employer... however on the bright side, you must have one degree in psychics as well to know what I have and what I do not and what I have done or not in the field of aviation :D

 

 

LOL, where did I say he wrote that? Thanks for showing how you have also reading comprehension problems.

What I had written with that sentence is to show how stupid it is. It's same as what he wrote. I only substituted AoA with Speed. It's exact same oxymoron. :)

 

Thx again for a barrel of laughs... have a nice week.

Sorry Groove, it wont happen again :)

 

Making fun of someone's educational level while not backing up what your saying with anything is kinda sad.

 

Post #82 in its entirety:

 

Hehe, for the 3rd time now... I was commenting on Pilotasso's #47 post in this topic, which is full of funny bits if you actually read what it is written and not what it is "supposed to be" written :)

Sure, you can go on and tell me how stupid and ignorant of me that I am not able to see the "real" meaning, etc.

But if someone is preaching to others (you must understand that not all readers understand/are at same level of knowledge), like he is, he should write correct and clear. Don't you think? Or is this just some 1337 fighter pilot sp33k? :)

 

Do you think it is acceptable to write... for an example: "Speed is bad for maneuvering. This is something that escapes some of the people here"

 

But it is not just that he misused the AoA acronym, there are other gems too... anyways...

 

P.S. Please do not start putting again your words into my mouth how I am not getting what are consequences of high AoA.

 

 

Buy my sim and check yourself if I grasp the concept of aerodynamics ;)

 

I think now you're either trolling or there must be a huge language gap here, because you're not communicating clearly. Either way; no more food for the troll and no more discussion. Its best not to discuss things when there's a language gap. I don't feel like running around on this hamster wheel for 10 more pages.

Edited November 24, 2008 by RedTiger

[Pilotasso]

Ignore mode on. I start to suspect this is just to get fun at our cost. Not worth it. but thanx for trying RT.

 

Cheers.

[nscode]

To get this back on topic, here is a video where it can clearly be seen that right engine is throttled up before the left one during the recovery phase of the bell tailslide.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmDsgwKCLtc&feature=related

Edited November 25, 2008 by nscode

[Kowalski]

where?

 

cheers,

 

Andre