mirage doing tail slide?

[RedTiger]

 

High AOA is good when u merge and have some IR-missiles, nothing could touch mig-29 or Su-27 after a merge until thrust vectoring came.

 

25 years of dogfight superiority :)

 

Nothing except the wingmen of the guy who died because Mr. MiG decided to cash in all his smash for a quick kill. I think that would be short-sighted at best, suicidal at worst. MiG kills bandit, bandit's wingy kills MiG, MiG's wingy kills bandit's wingy. A 2 to 1 kill ratio is atrocious, almost barbaric.

 

Yeah, this is way, way simplified, but its something to think about.

[GGTharos]

The MiG can pull this off on sustained rate alone easily enough, unless the F-15 arrives at the merge with a position advantage ...

 

A 'fair' merge in a 2v2 would end up -very- sporty. MiGs are very good at a close fight, but any time you start going into team games, things start looking very different.

[IvanK]

So Pilotasso I guess the extra 25-30deg of useable Alpha the hornet has over the F16 is all a wasted design excercise ?

 

If asked would you prefer 25Alpha 9G capability or 50+Alpha and 7.5G capability .. which one would you take ? , I know my answer :)

Edited November 20, 2008 by IvanK

[Pilotasso]

Ivan, how can you compare and tranlate AOA into turn rate with such different airframes?

 

(It would mean the hornet woul turn twice as better as the falcon going that way...now, is it? ;) )

 

 

High AOA is IMHO like I said (and nothing else like you seem to imply) an advantage for snap shots when you already have a bandit near your sights. Besides that, the aircraft that turns the tighter with the least AOA actualy has the advantage because bleeds less speed.

 

Now, how are you going to compare AOA for turn rates in such different aircraft? Bear in mind that after 25 degrees on any aircraft the wing air flow reaches divergent boundary layer config and turn rate decreases.

 

Your comment about waste of design is ill placed in the backgroud of anything I said.

 

My bro is a viper pilot and flies against F-18's regularly. Based on his accounts for T/W ratio and G limit I know wich plane I would choose. ;) (at least for my flying style that is)

Edited November 20, 2008 by Pilotasso

[Teknetinium]

Pilotasso, in a merge u dont know if opponent will still have only guns, so u will try to point ur nose at him as fast as possible doesn't matter what u fly, turn or run.

 

Ask ur brother what to do if he merges whit mig-29,su-27,F-18, what is in doctrine :)

 

From lock on experience, In a squad match or in hyper lobby u really dont go for power management as u would if u knew its was only guns, do u ?

Edited November 20, 2008 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

Dont take this too hard but I think your clueless. If you saw my merges with guns online with several known aces as whitnesses and had anyone you knew who actualy flies the real thing you wouldnt say things like this.

 

Pulling AOA right away is a mistake, it wont do anything good by itseld, you will bleed speed and give away the vertical plane to the bandit. There is a dance to be made first and that requires efficient turning and the least AOA and the fastest turn rate as possible (high AOA does the opposite). Its is only after when your behind his 3-9 line that you can gamble with snap nose pointing. doing it before will get you nailed.

[IvanK]

Pilotasso many moons ago I flew Hornets before the time of Amraams 9x, and , so perhaps like your brother I can also speak from a little experience :) and based on my flying style I know what aeroplane I would have taken. Not forgetting of course that most fighter pilots will pick the aeroplane they know rather than one they arn't current in, and of course its a bit academic as we are talking 1 v1 type scenarios... as the numbers increase the supposed advantages of one type over the other becomes blurred.... BFM v ACT.

 

I didn't translate AOA into Turn rate or make any attempt to. What I am getting at is that at 25AOA the Vipers nose stops moving, The Hornets doesnt. Sure the Hornet is bleeding above 25AOA but it can still point. Whilst Viper at 25AOA is bleeding but cant point.

 

I agree with you that Pulling max AOA on the merge isnt the way to go. At typical merge speeds both the F16 and the hornet would be G limited rather than AOA limited anyway. But given similar weapons fit and the old chestnut similar pilot ability then I argue that the fight will most likely degenerate into the slow speed regime, of course a smart viper pilot will do all in his power to stay out of this regime. For my money I reckon I could do more with my extra 25deg of AOA than the Viper could do with his extra 2.5G. If push comes to shove in the hornet a press of the slab would give the Hornet 9G anyway .... a kick in the derrière from the maintenance boss would follow.... but who would have the lower 9G Cv , and who would out rate who then ?... for a short time anyway.

Edited November 20, 2008 by IvanK

[Teknetinium]

Pilotasso stop being ignorant again, its simple, point ur nose as fast as possible at ur bandit, Im not talking about Guns exercises whit Aces, F-18/Su-27/Mig-29 dose it faster no matter what u wish they bleed speed faster they will need to pull less Gs. So if they have IR-missiles u are ****ed, go vertical if u like to.

 

A small advise, If Su-27/Mig-29/F-18 pilot start to save energy against F-16/F-15 pilot, most likely they are out of IRs ;)

 

I will not sitt here and telling u who I know in Russian air force or in Portuguese.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

You barely make any idea what Im talking about. You often argue back stuff seemingly in a different context of the original disccussion. It could be a language barrier or something else also.

 

 

It was not me who argued about high AOA flaw designs of the F-16 firstly, I picked up from there to debunk that argument, so dont bring me about IR missiles now. It seems to me everytime you speak about airplane comparisons you have some sort of pre arranged long pending agenda. Your claims are often baseless assumptions and everytime you run out of arguments you derrail the debate like you did above.

 

you triped yourself a few times in this thread, and calling me an ignorant trying to pass that image along does not favour your coherence or your agenda by far.

 

Theres is a scene in either speed and angels or red flag where the instructor specificaly says "dont point at the target unless your going to shoot". That after the merge, so where did the theory of "point the nose as soon as possible" come from? ;) This is just one example.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Pilotasso

[GGTharos]

... Because the other guy already saved his energy to dodge those first, typically not-so-great parameter shots, and is now diving onto your tail? ;)

 

A small advise, If Su-27/Mig-29/F-18 pilot start to save energy against F-16/F-15 pilot, most likely they are out of IRs ;)

[Pilotasso]

On another note. the Su-30MKI red flag debrief seems to show that BFM based on high AOA combat (on top of that with TVC) "point as soon as possible" tactic did not result favourably for the flankers facing those "crippled" F's doing energy management.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Pilotasso

[RedTiger]

Pilotasso many moons ago I flew Hornets before the time of Amraams 9x, and , so perhaps like your brother I can also speak from a little experience :) and based on my flying style I know what aeroplane I would have taken. Not forgetting of course that most fighter pilots will pick the aeroplane they know rather than one they arn't current in, and of course its a bit academic as we are talking 1 v1 type scenarios... as the numbers increase the supposed advantages of one type over the other becomes blurred.... BFM v ACT.

 

I didn't translate AOA into Turn rate or make any attempt to. What I am getting at is that at 25AOA the Vipers nose stops moving, The Hornets doesnt. Sure the Hornet is bleeding above 25AOA but it can still point. Whilst Viper at 25AOA is bleeding but cant point.

 

I agree with you that Pulling max AOA on the merge isnt the way to go. At typical merge speeds both the F16 and the hornet would be G limited rather than AOA limited anyway. But given similar weapons fit and the old chestnut similar pilot ability then I argue that the fight will most likely degenerate into the slow speed regime, of course a smart viper pilot will do all in his power to stay out of this regime. For my money I reckon I could do more with my extra 25deg of AOA than the Viper could do with his extra 2.5G. If push comes to shove in the hornet a press of the slab would give the Hornet 9G anyway .... a kick in the derrière from the maintenance boss would follow.... but who would have the lower 9G Cv , and who would out rate who then ?... for a short time anyway.

 

I didn't know you actually flew Hornets. You get a big fat S! sir, I highly respect those who put their butts on the line and do or did this stuff for real. :)

 

Contrary to what I said earlier about what I would pick, here's what I think. I think the tendency is always going to be for the fight to get lower and slower. There's that video out there that shows Vipers vs. MiG-29Gs showing guns kills at speeds that are much slower than either jet's cornering speeds.

 

So part of me thinks that the high AoA jet is more forgiving. Since the tendency seems to be "lower and slower", a jet that fights well toward that tendency would be more forgiving. OTOH a jet that must keep its speed up to fight is less forgiving but more capable in the hands of a pilot who's very good at not playing the low and slow game. I always have a tendency to prefer the thing that is harder to use but better once mastered, hence my *virtual* preference.

 

Does that make sense? Would you agree?

 

So I ask you; what REALLY happens in a Hornet when you bleed off that energy to trade it for angles? Some seem to suggest that you're now a sitting duck wallowing around waiting to get shot. Is it that bad? Discounting radar guided weapons, whats to stop the Hornet driver from popping off flares and pointing his nose down? Nothing says you can't jink in a dive.

Edited November 20, 2008 by RedTiger

[Teknetinium]

Ill stop repeat my self u just dont get it.

Pilotasso I had several merges whit u and not one off them U have been going for power management in ur F-15 :)

I wonder why.

Its easy when u have better TTW knowing they opponent is using only guns.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Teknetinium

[Vati]

The tail-slide is not on the list of restricted maneuvers in the F-15-1 ;)

What about cobra? :D

 

AOA is bad for maneuvering. This is something that escapes some of the people here.

:D O boy, I dont remember when was the last time I heard something as funny as this.

Look Pilotasso, I suggest you to take some basic aerodynamics book into your hand for the sake of not making dunce out of yourself with comments like that ;)

 

I guess I will need to check this forum more often.. it sure is nice entertainment :)

[Pilotasso]

The debate between F-18 and f-16 pilots is almost as old as the designs themselves. truth is that the planes are so closely matched that nobody could find enough arguments to put an end to that never ending pi$$ contest among pilots. :D

 

From my side I can see high AOA culd be a problem when the F-18 is behind my 3-9 line because he can throttle back and blled his speed to stop an overshoot (usualy the victims last ditch effort to evade). Besides that I would rather prefer the better acceleration, G limit and t/W ratio simply for the fact I use these features heavily.

[Pilotasso]

What about cobra? :D

 

 

:D O boy, I dont remember when was the last time I heard something as funny as this.

Look Pilotasso, I suggest you to take some basic aerodynamics book into your hand for the sake of not making dunce out of yourself with comments like that ;)

 

I guess I will need to check this forum more often.. it sure is nice entertainment :)

 

try to outturn your opposition with a higher AOA and see what that gets you. Its a scientific fact boundary layer diverges and your turn rate and speed decreases. Laugh at will but your laghing on your own ignorance.

 

Cheers.

[Pilotasso]

Ill stop repeat my self u just dont get it.

Pilotasso I had several merges whit u and not one off them U have been going for power management in ur F-15 :)

I wonder why.

Its easy when u have better TTW knowing they opponent is using only guns.

 

What merges? I dont remember the last time I did a guns fight with you. Only BVR. I did my gun matches with RVE mainly.

[GGTharos]

What about cobra? :D

 

It isn't there either ;)

 

Edit: To be fair, if a maneuver is not explicitly permitted you must get clearance to do it. On the other hand there are a number of explicitly prohibited things that you should not do when flying the Eagle.

Edited November 20, 2008 by GGTharos

[Teknetinium]

Becouse u dont enter a guns fight whit me in preordered Guns exercise, u do that in HL or in a squad match after intensive BVR fight.

When U get a Gun kill in such circumstances witch u have Ill respect ur dogfight skills.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

whats that got to do with F-16 being "crippled"? :)

[RedTiger]

 

 

:D O boy, I dont remember when was the last time I heard something as funny as this.

Look Pilotasso, I suggest you to take some basic aerodynamics book into your hand for the sake of not making dunce out of yourself with comments like that ;)

 

I guess I will need to check this forum more often.. it sure is nice entertainment :)

 

This comment is making me wonder...are we all on the same page?

 

When I think "high AoA", what I think of is hauling the stick back as far as it will go. That certainly can be bad for your health. You're spending smash for angles at all costs.

 

I'm getting the feeling that this isn't what others are talking about. But if not, what ARE you talking about? :huh:

[Teknetinium]

whats that got to do with F-16 being "crippled"? :)

 

 

Im compering ur flying to ur bullshit.....:)

[Rhen]

This comment is making me wonder...are we all on the same page?

 

When I think "high AoA", what I think of is hauling the stick back as far as it will go. That certainly can be bad for your health. You're spending smash for angles at all costs.

 

I'm getting the feeling that this isn't what others are talking about. But if not, what ARE you talking about? :huh:

 

You're absolutely correct. High alpha/AOA flight is a wonderful thing - up to a point. For example, I can get 40+ units of AOA out of the Eagle IRL (N/A LOMAC). However, what I'm doing at that point can be described aptly - since it's fall (season) - is falling out of the sky like a leaf. The stick's full aft the AOA might be 40-45 units, and the jet's going down fast (VVI's pegged at 6,000fpm DOWN) even though the nose is about level and the wings are rocking like a falling leaf. My turn rate at this point can be described as non-existant. I can stir the stick around and even kick the rudders around, but nothing really happens.

 

Welcome to the peeled grape club, because if you're fighting in this regime in a conventional jet (non-thrust vectoring) you're not really fighting, you're a walking - er - flying target, ready to be turned into a cloud of hair, teeth & eyeballs, by the guy that keeps his rate up. If you have post stall maneuvering capability, you can still rate the nose, but not nearly as well as if you kept your speed at corner.

 

Remember the #1 rule of BFM - KILL THE BANDIT QUICKLY. #2 is RATE KILLS. He who rates his nose faster than his opponent will win faster - all things being equal (pilot skill). As said previously, mature BFM will degenerate into a low, slow fight. Your best course of action is to keep your speed as high as possible (corner) to keep your rate, and of course, use out of plane (of the bandit's plane of motion) maneuvering to fly to the entry point of his turn circle - 2-3,000 ft behind the bandit.

 

If I were a Raptor pilot, with the ability to sustain 28 DPS, then I'd stay there as long as possible. I'm a fool if I decide that 28 isn't enough. Then I begin to piss speed away, rate falls, & then if I keep this up I end up going from being a Raptor, to a Viper, then an Eagle, then a tanker (in turn rate)-with this great high alpha/AOA regime pre-stall where the aircraft won't rate. The only option at this point is to utilize vectored thrust. I can rotate about the tip of the aircraft instead of the CL (center of lift), so I get my rate back (the good news). But the bad news is 3-fold:

 

First I'm hanging there in the air like a grape ready for the pickin' - because i have that much excess thrust so I don't fall out of the sky. Secondly, my rate, depending upon my rotational axis and gravity, but probably won't be 28DPS. Finally, I telegraph my state to the bandit because he sees my ass-end drop and my nose point obliquely upward. So that target arm in his Eagle can use the vertical while I rotate in the horizontal without getting my nose on him and I get a death dot plastered to my noggin.:doh:

It's almost like fighting an F-14. You can see the turkey's energy level by his variable geometry wings. Wings swept back, he's moving at the speed of heat. Wing's moving forward, starting to slow a bit. Fully extended straight out - Turkey's done! Dinner time! Come get me!

 

Another good rule for BFM is to always fly a 1v1 like it's a 1v2, because it just might be. No real airforce launches single ship to go fight. The smallest fighting unit is a 2-ship. So if you're engaged with a guy that's trying to keep you fighting, it may be because he's trying to keep you interested while his wingman pops you like a tick. What does flying a 1v1 like a 1v2 look like? Simple, remember BFM rule #1? Make the kill quickly & efficiently and come away from the engagement as close to corner speed as you can. Does this mean that you can stay at corner all day long? Nope.

 

You sacrifice airspeed to enter a weapons parameter to QUICKLY KILL THE BANDIT. If I can blow my smash away by rating my nose onto the bandit, & then drill his brains out, sts, I'm gonna do it. I might end up at 250KCAS after that maneuver, but I'm now short 1 bandit. This works even better when you have a jet that can recover it's speed rapidly after squaring off the corner to get into weapons parameters. If your jet's a pig, you might not want to chance it.

 

Another thing to remember is to maximize your merge geometery to deny a schlem, and use your countermeasures to help. If my ECM makes it impossible for him to lock me up/see me with his radar & we get to the merge, well he's probably already dead anyway, because my radar and ECCM are usually better, but if we get to the merge and I can maximize my geometery against a medium aspect bandit, I can HOB him or roll into his 6 and Fox him :thumbup:. Barring that I can get into his elbow and gun him. Rate will get me there.

 

It's good to be able to control the aircraft post stall. That's what thrust vectoring is for. But it helps if your available thrust can rapidly accelerate you back to flying speed - oh yeah, and if you're electronically invisible to the merge, that sure helps too.:D

[Vati]

are we all on the same page?

Hehe, guess not, as if you would had actually read what he wrote, we would had been :D

Pilotasso clearly does not understand the concept behind acronym AOA. Sure you can pretend he actually meant 'high', he will jump in and say that he indeed meant that, but anyone can pretty much see that what he talks is a few big words mixed with a very poor understanding of the topic :)

[Pilotasso]

Im compering ur flying to ur bullshit.....:)

 

well it seems my bullshit is better than yours :D