So much excess thrust for the enemy in dogfight?

[loscsaba86]

Hello

From time to time I am practicing the dogfight.
I speak now about the "Instant action" against the F4 Phantom.

It happens often, that I am with the F4 in a flat scissor. At a point we have the same speed, same level and we are next each other.

I see, that he beginst to turn in a direction, I give also full afterburner (even emergency!), but I have no chance with the MIG-21.
He has in couple of seconds suddenly 1.4-1.5 km advantage. How??? The F4 is a big plane, and I cannot imagine what he does or what I do wrong...

I dont pull the stick even hard....

Anybody an idea?

[razo+r]

AI having a bit of different physics leading to possibly questionable behaviour, which is supposed to be fixed some distant day somewhen in the far future. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by razo+r

[Skuva]

I guess the AI FM does not take into account engine thrust being affected by low speeds as Player's FM does. I saw before AI F-4's going from scissoring at 400km/h to climbing in a vertical at 1:1 thrust to weight ratio like an UFO. If you fight an AI mig-21, you will see the same sort of bullshit, maybe even worse.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Skuva

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

AI uses a totally different FM to the player. The coming GFM is supposed to address this and the AI behavior on top of that.

[loscsaba86]

Alright, I understand now.
Yes, if I was flying against the same aircraft (here MIG-21), it was even that time unbelievable, how better the opponent can climb.... Pfff... Ok, then we are waiting for the fix in the far future.

Question: what does mean "FM" and "GFM"?

[razo+r]

FM means flight model and GFM is going to be their new general flight model I believe.

[rogorogo]

Am 10.1.2022 um 14:26 schrieb loscsaba86:

Alright, I understand now.
Yes, if I was flying against the same aircraft (here MIG-21), it was even that time unbelievable, how better the opponent can climb.... Pfff... Ok, then we are waiting for the fix in the far future.

Question: what does mean "FM" and "GFM"?

welcome to the wonderfull world of acronyms and especially confusing everchanging official DCS acronyms.

As stated before:
FM - Flight Model, general industry term encompassing the code concept of a title how to represent "flight" (player asset, AI, NPC, environmental) in the product

GFM - General Flight Model, DCS specific term that is supposed to mean "a general and global ruleset all flight assets operate in"... while intriguing.. also as likely as world peace

additional things you should be aware of

SFM - Standard Flight Model, discontinued (or so they say, whoever "they" are), comes from Lock On: Modern Air Combat and represents an older way of doing flight modeling on PC flight sims. Its data driven and has scripted elements to it. For example, in the older versions of aircraft using the SFM you could perform a ‘cobra maneuver’ by button press.

AFM - Advanced Flight Model, should actually read "Arcade", originally gestated for FC3 assets, still present in one last FC asset (F-15C). Officially once described as going with a more physics based model simulating actual forces on aircraft surfaces to achieve a realistic feeling of flight. Fewer or no scripted elements are a part of this flight model. Hydraulics and fuel system modeling comprise a AFM+ setup.

PFM - Professional Flight Model, more fidelic, proper physics-adherent. Gestated for full fidelity modules, later also applied to almost all old FC3 modules (save for the F-15C). Feels better, is better but unfortunately and contrary to popular belief is NOT standardized at all, not even within a module provider. This can and does cause unforseen issues with tiresome regularity. Finally started down the road of a few years ago and has been slowly, arbitrarily and non-cohesively been updating aircraft to support this level of detail. Realistic simulation of nearly all elements of aircraft including its construction (such as the individual elements of a landing gear system, its hydraulics, etc.), flight surfaces, wind tunnel testing, and other data are all fed into the system, née grid components, inheritance and interdependece in meshes, grids, textures, action maps, bleed and overbleed states. 
I’m sure I’m not doing the complexity of this justice but nonetheless its a very high level of detail - if only if only it and many other things were actually standardized franchise-wide.

EFM - External Flight Model, whatever modding does to a base asset when used to create a mod representing an entirely different asset. No one actually knows what it is supposed to mean but everyone and his/her grandparents have started to use that label. It may be intended to mean something entirely different but no one knows, no one will dare ask and frankly few dare care anymore because that is what autism-level paying customer interaction by a product provider results in.

If your head by now has not gone booooom - welcome to DCS, enjoy your everlasting and neverending journey in discovery of wonders.
It is Eagle Dynamics' world, we just go ever so slightly bonkers in it...

[twistking]

@Yo-Yo said that realistic energy states are not limited by the SFM and therefore the GFM will not change AI aircraft in that regard.

So... let's bump this thread then: *bump*

ps: I think @Skuva might be right with the assumption that the FM doesn't take relation between airspeed and max thrust into account.

[Yo-Yo]

2 hours ago, twistking said:

@Yo-Yo said that realistic energy states are not limited by the SFM and therefore the GFM will not change AI aircraft in that regard.

So... let's bump this thread then: *bump*

ps: I think @Skuva might be right with the assumption that the FM doesn't take relation between airspeed and max thrust into account.

Please do not use speculations and rumors of different kinds.