Let's get serious about Dive-Toss!

[JB3DG]

I hope it has it.

[Elf1606688794]

The F-4E's I worked on had dive toss, ARN-101 birds and non ARN-101 so I'd expect Heatblur will have it on the Phantom at some point.

[Karon]

I recently read "Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters In The Decade After Vietnam". Short and limited book, but it has some interesting takes on the topic.

[JB3DG]

Confession, the only reason I made this topic was so I could use that phrase cuz I got it from this book.

2 hours ago, Karon said:

I recently read "Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters In The Decade After Vietnam". Short and limited book, but it has some interesting takes on the topic.

 

[mkellytx]

5 hours ago, Karon said:

I recently read "Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters In The Decade After Vietnam". Short and limited book, but it has some interesting takes on the topic.

Great book, it tells the story very well how the Capt's and Maj's at FWS played a key roles changing USAF culture for the better post VN.  If you're looking for war stories, Palace Cobra and Fighter Pilot by Ed Rasimus are a good start.  Ed has a great chapter about dive toss...

[uri_ba]

Also TOSS!

In addition, one related static model request

In the 70s the Israeli airforce had oil drum towers (55gal oil drums painted white) along the borders at key positions. These drum towers were used as IP or as last waypoint in friendly territory and allowed a fixed known point to remove drift from INS.

[Karon]

2 hours ago, mkellytx said:

Great book, it tells the story very well how the Capt's and Maj's at FWS played a key roles changing USAF culture for the better post VN.  If you're looking for war stories, Palace Cobra and Fighter Pilot by Ed Rasimus are a good start.  Ed has a great chapter about dive toss...

I don't find war stories particularly useful, tbh. I prefer the technical details, and usually, they are left out from those. Per Ardua is a good example of what I prefer.

Thanks for the suggestions though

[Kirk66]

When Star Wars first came out, I was going through F-4C training at Luke AFB. Of course we all went to see it. The consensus from all the F-4 crews (instructors and students) was that Star Wars proved that, in the future:

There will still be fighter pilots (Luke, of course)

There will still be WSOs (R2-D2 in this case)

And Dive Toss will still not work...

(Dive Toss in the F-4 was notoriously finicky, and unless well maintained, pretty much useless. That being said, when it worked, it was great!)

Vulture

[_Hoss]

I was going to Navy Avionics schools in Millington, TN. When Star Wars came out in 77. This is a SIM so it will probably work until a patch comes out and bricks it. Like everything else....

Hoss

Edited January 27, 2022 by 352nd_Hoss

[MBot]

5 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

(Dive Toss in the F-4 was notoriously finicky, and unless well maintained, pretty much useless. That being said, when it worked, it was great!)

Very interesting. Would you say then that the primary method of bombing was still manually with the depressible pipper? I assume with ARN-101, CCIP became the primary mode?

[JB3DG]

19 hours ago, MBot said:

Very interesting. Would you say then that the primary method of bombing was still manually with the depressible pipper? I assume with ARN-101, CCIP became the primary mode?

Manual was the preferred mode according to the book first mentioned. There was also an ego side associated with it, the mindset of computers being for kids and that real men used manual.

[Rick50]

1 hour ago, JB3DG said:

Manual was the preferred mode according to the book first mentioned. There was also an ego side associated with it, the mindset of computers being for kids and that real men used manual.

 

That mindset might have resulted from a lack of confidence that the computer would be working well, when it was really needed. Thus practice the manual mode, get good at it, at least that will still have a chance at working well enough each sortie.  I mean, if it was broken that much of the time in a calm peacetime training, what faith would any experienced fighter pilot have, that the system would work rarely if ever, during wartime, when the maintenance crews are running around the clock, for weeks without a day off rest, when supply chains are strained, when the #$^Q technical manual is a bugger to read through at 02:30 in the graveyard...  where at least if you've developed your manual delivery skills, you can be certain that it works "60% of the time, it works every time"... or rather, you might miss some, but you'll still be close, and your next pass will probably be "on". 

 

Soldiers using rifles have sometimes have similar concerns about their own sighting systems... so while they have either a fancy optic, or a red dot optic, the ones that regularly expect to get into firefights often mount a backup system, small "iron sights" that work like those of earlier eras, like WW2 or the Cold War rifles. Truth be told, these optics are much less likely to fail than this Phantom computer, but the flip up irons are carried by some even today. Batteries fail, an electrical circuit gets vibrated out  of contact, the mount mechanism fails and the optic falls off... Murphy's Law: if it CAN go wrong, it will go wrong at the worst possible time!  The military was very slow to adopt the fancy red dot sights out of concern for their failure in harsh conditions... the first "modern" red dots started to get to market in the mid-1980's, but did not start being carried in the military until the late 90's in special forces unit, and by 2002 were being issued across the board. But early products range back to the late 60's for one version, and there was even a battery-less version from... early 1950's. 

 

[Kirk66]

Pre-ARN-101, manual dive bombing was practiced on every range mission, and was where you won or lost your quarters; but the serious crews also worked on dive toss to get the system tuned up (especially if going to Red Flag, for example). Manual bombs in a combat or Red Flag environment only worked if you dropped a LOT of them - normal load was 6 x Mk82s, 3 on each TER on the inboard pylons. If your dive toss system was working, it was a LOT better than trying to meet manual parameters during a pop attack with F-5s snapping at your heels...

ARN-101 brought CCIP to the F-4 and finally made it a pretty good iron bomber, but even then it took more skill than say an F-16; the F-4E CCIP only had the legacy F-4 reticle without the predictor line or post release guidance (in a Toss delivery) so it took more skill to get the moving CCIP pipper on the target; the ARN-101 F-4E also had a Dive Toss mode that I thought was a better system, as the pilot could maneuver pretty aggressively with a stable pipper, put the pipper on the target, designate, then pull hard until the bombs came off. Some pilots liked it, most preferred the CCIP mode where the bombs came off as soon as they picked. 

Vulture