DMAS Version autonomous self lasing - Pave Spike / Pave Tack

[SgtPappy]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:46 AM, HEXO said:

the TISEO was Retrofitted to Block 48 and above, which is the same block as DMAS. so it was on the DMAS version only [:

 

The Rivet Haste birds that saw combat in Vietnam between Nov 1972 and Jan 73 (the "new" 555th TFS) had TISEO before DMAS was a thing.

There were a few Israeli Phantoms during the Yom Kippur War on Oct 73 that also had TISEO, most if not all of them were Nickel Grass jets. None of these had DMAS.

Edited August 10, 2022 by SgtPappy

[LanceCriminal86]

18 hours ago, Chipwich said:

It's been a while since my dad passed, but from memory of the discussions we had about his flying F-4Es out of Ubon in '72-'73 (335th and 336th TFS), the Knife pod was buddy lased and the Spike was WSO lased.  They used both Knife and Spike to great effect.  I see photos of airplanes with and without slats.  None with TISEO though.  I'll keep looking.

 

I was researching on that the other day, trying to get ideas for some VN era skins for the Es that we will have as far as slats but not TISEO jets. It had seemed that some of the Es rushed out to VN around that time supposedly had both slats and TISEO under RIVET HASTE in '72 or '73? or something like that, and then older jets had slats retrofitted from there through the end of the war. If you've got anything showing the slatted, non-TISEO Es in VN I'd really appreciate it.

[evanf117]

On 1/27/2022 at 7:49 PM, Northstar98 said:

They're both 1st. gen systems, in comparison LANTIRN is 2nd. gen and LITENING (at least our variants) & ATFLIR are 3rd.

According to the -34-1-1-2, Pave Tack has 2 FOVs and a digital zoom. According to the -34-1-1 Pave Spike has 2 FOVs but no digital zoom. Unfortunately I can't find the numbers for what the FOVs should be, nor can I find what the resolution should be.

But the main advantage Pave Tack brings is that it's FLIR rather than TV, it also has that memory mode, as well as several more acquire modes.

As said previously, Pave Spike is only on selected blocks

As for its bulk? Here's a cutaway I found:

one of the major advantages in my mind of the Pave Tack is its complete lower hemisphere coverage so you shouldn't ever run into target masking issues when flying straight and level

[Bremspropeller]

On 8/10/2022 at 6:14 PM, LanceCriminal86 said:

I was researching on that the other day, trying to get ideas for some VN era skins for the Es that we will have as far as slats but not TISEO jets. It had seemed that some of the Es rushed out to VN around that time supposedly had both slats and TISEO under RIVET HASTE in '72 or '73? or something like that, and then older jets had slats retrofitted from there through the end of the war. If you've got anything showing the slatted, non-TISEO Es in VN I'd really appreciate it.

I can offer you a non-slatted pre-Midas IV TISEO bird. Didn't even know they existed until a couple of weeks ago, since I was under the presumption TISEO was a post-slat thing.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Bremspropeller

[LanceCriminal86]

8 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I can offer you a non-slatted pre-Midas IV TISEO bird. Didn't even know they existed until a couple of weeks ago, since I was under the presumption TISEO was a post-slat thing.

 

I ran across a comment somewhere that TISEO may have been retrofitted on a limited number of airframes around Rivet Haste, and looking at the serial of that jet, it would have to be. It's either 66-0317, 67-0317, or 68-0317. There were no higher XX-0317s produced so it's not like it was a 71- Rivet Haste new-production rushed to SEA jet.

It's probably 68-0317, which was shown as assigned to 421 TFS in 1972, who had the LC tailcode. Looks like it's the one, has Hey Jude nose art:

 

There really isn't any concrete info out there on this jet having the TISEO added, because later photos it's not there. It very well looks like either TISEO kits were rushed out there to the 421 TFS, or a few jets were modified and sent out there (can see one in the background there) separate from the Rivet Haste jets that were 71- and had slats, and sent to the 555th.

[MBot]

On 2/18/2022 at 11:59 PM, Kirk66 said:

On 2/17/2022 at 10:16 PM, mkellytx said:

Would love to hear your take on low level deliveries with either pod.

Doable - see the Eldorado Canyon F-111 attacks for Pave Tack use at low alt - but the problem with low alt LGBs is you really need a vertical target, and then you get "podium effect" where you fly around the target and the weapon loses the laser spot as it is coming in from one direction while you are lazing from the other side.

In the F-4 with Spike you could do a pop attack and toss the GBU-12, and use delayed lazing to wait until the GBU was on the way down; then basically float the pop up until weapon impact. Not good if there was any serious SAMs or AAA. SA-6/8s and ZSU-23-4s would eat you alive...

And you really need GBU-24s that are designed for low alt deliveries; GBU-10s and 12s lose too much energy due to their "bang-bang" guidance. More of an F-15E kind of thing...

Somewhere I've probably got some old tactics manuals that describe how to do it; I'll have to dig around and see if I can find them.

Vulture

@Kirk66 Sorry for digging up old posts, but I am experimenting with low level deliveries for laser-guided bombs and this seems highly relevant. Do you remember what weapon delivery modes you used for lofting LGBs and how Pave Spike was cued on to the target during/after the loft? Any real-life input you could give would be highly appreciated.

I had some success with lofting directly out of Target Find mode:

The problem with this is that it is rather unreliable in practice. As Pave Spike needs to be put into tracking mode before the loft maneuver (to get weapon release calculations) and the view angle to the target is really flat at low level before the loft, there can be a big target tracking error. Quite often I come out of the loft into the designation phase, unable to subsequently find the target with the pod, with the pod tracking a point either way ahead or beyond the target.

Alternatively I tried to loft in the LABS LOFT mode. But here WRCS acquisition mode is unavailable to Pave Spike and therefore the pod cannot be aligned with the target after coming out of the loft maneuver into the designation phase.

Alternatively I tried to hand-loft in Direct mode, which works surprisingly well. Direct mode would allow Pave Spike WRCS acquisition, but WRCS target insertion does not work in Direct. Therefore the pod doesn't have a target it can be quickly cued on after the loft maneuver.

How was this done?

[Kirk66]

There really isn't an easy way that I know to do Pave Spike LGB deliveries without a human WSO in DCS at present. It can be done, but flying the jet and running the pod at the same time is a bit much (but a lot of fun to try - kinda like backseat landings).

I would use WRCS in TGT FIND, a VIP (freeze/insert) to cue the pod to the target, select track and spike toss the LGB, setup the designation turn, then try to find the target and lase before impact.

If you haven't got these documents yet, please get them at: 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3335473/

Pave Spike procedures are in 347th TFW DOW NIP #24. 

LGB delivery parameters are in 3rd TFS Conventional Weapons Planning Guide.

Cheers

[MBot]

14 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

There really isn't an easy way that I know to do Pave Spike LGB deliveries without a human WSO in DCS at present. It can be done, but flying the jet and running the pod at the same time is a bit much (but a lot of fun to try - kinda like backseat landings).

I would use WRCS in TGT FIND, a VIP (freeze/insert) to cue the pod to the target, select track and spike toss the LGB, setup the designation turn, then try to find the target and lase before impact.

If you haven't got these documents yet, please get them at: 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3335473/

Pave Spike procedures are in 347th TFW DOW NIP #24. 

LGB delivery parameters are in 3rd TFS Conventional Weapons Planning Guide.

Cheers

Thank you very much for the documents, this is fantastic reading material.

I have been pretty much using the delivery profile you describe. But because it requires Pave Spike to be put into tracking mode before the loft, it greatly depends on getting accurate slant range at low altitude, which is a well known problem. For me, the precision of actually throwing the bombs towards the target is not so much the issue. Terminal guidance can make up for quite a bit of range error. But the precision of the Pave Spike track after the loft maneuver is causing me troubles. Often it is so much off that I am unable to re-locate the target in time for the laser designation, spoiling the attack. I tried to improve this with a two-stage loft. First I enter a shallow climb to about 500 ft, put the pod into track and then pull up into the full loft. This improves the precision of the slant range and helps to get a track closer to the target, but it does not full resolve the issue. Sometimes it works, sometimes an attack is spoiled. It would be great to be able to keep Pave Spike in WRCS acquisition until after the loft maneuver, which works great to keep the pod pointed at the target. But unfortunately this is mutually exclusive with doing a TGT FIND weapon release.

I would have expected that LABS LOFT deliveries of laser-guided bombs were considered, because it is unaffected by the slant-range problem at low altitude (and terminal guidance make up for the general inaccuracies of LABS). Also it would have allowed a very low approach to target under cover with no LOS required before the attack (lofting over a hill for example). But it seems this was not considered. Because there was no good way to get Pave Spike on target quickly without WRCS integration?

I agree that using Pave Spike solo in DCS is challenging. But I have been operating on the premise that the WSO cannot reasonably control the pod anyway while the pilot is maneuvering, and the pilot should not maneuver while the WSO is operating the pod. So while not ideal, quick seat swapping and doing the pilot/WSO tasks in sequence is at least possible. It is certainly a lot of fun.

I am really enjoying going a bit deeper into these tactical considerations for the F-4E.

[Zabuzard]

4 minutes ago, MBot said:

accurate slant range at low altitude, which is a well known problem

I feel like its important to stress this fact, you are doing low level attacks. You wont have such issues lofting from higher altitude. (Which is ofc obvious but I think its easy to overlook this when reading your scenario descriptions)

Edited May 2 by Zabuzard

[Kirk66]

WSOs actually got pretty good at handling the Spike pod during the delivery maneuvers; the key was for the pilot to be smooth in his inputs. And we are not talking a lot of G here, 2 - 3 usually, so not a bad working environment; all you needed really was to keep the target area in sight during the pull off and entry to the designation turn, then get back on target and start lasing.

 

[Kirk66]

I just read your procedure for solo lofting LGBs, and would add that you can control the TGP from the front seat if you have a spare joystick - map that stick as the WSO hand controller and guide the bomb from the front. If you are ambidextrous, you can fly with one hand and run the pod with the other, but using Attitude Hold is probably a better answer; but at least if you are still in the front seat it's easier to recover if the AP kicks off!

 

[MBot]

Doing the pod and flying at the same time is way beyond my abilities What I do is I have the button for switching seats on my stick and have bound the hand controller in the WSO seat to my flightstick. That way I can basically switch between flying the plane and working the pod at the tip of my finger.

[Kirk66]

I also have a stick button for seat switching - invaluable for solo flying when you get tired of the teenager in the pit. My sim setup has a center stick as well as a sidestick for F-16 flying, I map the sidestick for the WSO handcontroller, in both seats. Makes using the radar from the front a lot easier. 

Most serious DCS players probably have an old gaming stick gathering dust somewhere - if it has a trigger, it makes a great WSO radar hand controller - and you can still fly from the pit while working the radar.

Perfect for that Warthog stick that you replaced with a Virpil/VPC/Rhino...If you take the spring out - it's exactly like the real thing! (The hand controller in the actual jet doesn't have any centering spring or detent - you just had to know where center was. Took some practice!)