correct as is F16 Blk50 Radar needs upgrade to reality level.

[Chibawang]

3 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Again, provide evidence for this and we'll investigate collectively. There is no reason for this to be the case as it is using the same exact code. People online are just flying differently from AI.

Player vs AI is certainly a factor, though it's hard to imagine how in head-on co-altitude scenarios. To say that's the only difference between offline and network play is pretty naïve, however. It could be a server problem, ping problem, net code, etc. As I said, any number of variables NOT to do with the radar code. I have already uploaded a track in another thread, I believe ED is aware of the issues and doesn't need 100s more bug reports or tracks to go through on the same issue. 

[Chibawang]

 

On 2/21/2022 at 9:49 AM, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Can you post a link so we can have a look?

Fine, try this one out and tell me what you think. It's not the most blatantly horrible example mind you; it's short, to the point, and perfectly typical of the average performance. The real horror shows are usually buried within hours long tracks.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wha_YHcJfGFMIpzRcyP1jzaVOKXQzyAB/view?usp=sharing

[Chibawang]

2 hours ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Ok this is a pretty long track and the GS server to begin with, which is probably the laggiest environment in DCS multiplayer right now, depending on playercount. I watched your first sortie, when you were engaging that group that leading JF-17 was flying low and you had mountains/terrain below you as well, so he was most likely hiding. AT around 40nm he started beaming, as he left the beam your radar picked him up for a second there. What I saw you do is chase the L16 altitude assignment with your elevation all the time insted of predicting where he might be. L16 indications aren't real time and it seems that he was descending and/or terrain masking. Not sure without a tacview file. I think this particular instance was a combination of bad radar mech, the JF17 having a fairly low RCS in DCS (same as Mig-21 afaik) and potential terrain masking. I think the best evidence you could collect is conducting some serious tests in a MP environment in a 1v1 against various aircraft, high, low etc. and see where they get picked up. And outside of lag related issues there should be no difference between MP and SP when it comes to this. 

 

You must not have watched the entire sortie, that’s not even the encounter I was talking about. I think it was suspect performance, but I figured you would explain it away with little subtleties like that without making any attempt to confirm whether that was actually the case! Tacview can be recorded from a track, you know.
 

I was talking about the encounter immediately after, flying head on with a fighter above me at 39k I believe. This too could probably be explained away if you really tried again, but I’m not trying to convince you as you seem to be taking a position and will not be swayed from it. 
 

As for your other complaints...

- you won’t find a shorter multiplayer track than this. I take off and immediately encounter the bandits with no in between time.
-my ping is in the 40s, it’s the most lag free server I can find. Others may lag, and that could be a factor. AS I SAID BEFORE, it could be any number of things not to do with radar programming, including lag, server performance, net code. If that’s the case, I would like someone who knows what they’re talking about to confirm it, not some random guy on the forums. 
 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Chibawang

[Chibawang]

49 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Oh boy, here we go. 

Yes, I think we are talking about the same engagement. I did look at the track-recorded tacview now and it does seem to confirm what I expected. Said JF-17 was at 39k, fired a TWS SD-10 at you from around 34nm, then initiated a steep, almost vertical, offset split S to the deck. when he was nose-hot on you again he was at around 7k MSL and low, you were still high scanning down. At least this is what I think happened here. If you still have doubts or concerns, I'd be more than willing to run some 1 on 1 tests with you in an online environment using various aircraft, trying a split S escape etc. to see their effect on detection ranges and whatnot. 

Obviously DCS radar is very simplistic and by far not perfect but I think people expect way too much from the Viper's APG68 that we have in game as it previously acted like an F-15 radar for the longest time after release. And I repeat again, I'd be more than willing to run some tests either with you or someone else in a controlled and reproduceable environment. 

 

Well, that's what I get for reading your post before I've had my coffee. It does appear you were talking about the correct engagement. If I've judged you too harshly, I apologize. I too think there is a group of people that are expecting too much from the radar, but I don't count myself among them. I only got the module a month ago, I didn't get used to any of the unrealistic performance you speak of. May I ask you, do you fly the F-16 regularly? Online? It seems all who do are in agreement that something is wrong, and all who don't want them to shut up about it. 

 

Anyway, I don't think your explanation is really sufficient. A couple other points:

• I didn't chase him with my elevation, it was mostly centered on him the entire time, save a brief a second at the end before the missile impacted. I did chase him with my cursor, but I don't see how that's relevant or even a bad habit. 
• It's not as though I was being notched. He did a steep dive to offset, presumably while maintaining lock. (Try that in an F-16!) No terrain masking as you thought. If that's all it takes to handily defeat an F-16's radar, I'm shocked.  
• Again I'll point out that this is FAR from the most egregious example, but it's a short and clean track.

Setting up some tests is not out of the question if you're really interested, but it starts to feel like I should be getting paid for this lol

Edited February 23, 2022 by Chibawang

[Chibawang]

Yes, all radar modes. I've mostly been using RWS as I heard somewhere that it was better, but I've not found that to be true. RWS seems to have better ability to detect targets, but drops lock on a dime and contacts fade in and out constantly. You can see the TD box lag and update every second or two, whereas TWS is smooth. Also it seems bandits are getting a STT warning in SAM mode, but I haven't confirmed that with a friend. If anyone knows how that is currently working I would love to know.

[Aquorys]

The real problem with the F-16's radar in DCS is probably not the antenna's performance, but the fire control system around it. A lot seems to be broken since the last update, I just jumped into a few single-player scenarios in DCS.

First, I used TMS right to bug a target, and instead of it being bugged, it disappeared from the display. Doing it again would make the other target disappear and the one that should previously have been bugged reappear. Only after several seconds of messing around, dropping system files and even track files and then selecting them again manually, could I finally get a target bugged. This was reproducible. I was also unable to select targets with TMS forward.

I was also unable to guide two AMRAAMs for more than a couple seconds, because the computer dropped the system track on both targets, although it had no problem keeping the track file, which makes absolutely no sense at all. Sometimes, the track files were dropped too, in those cases the targets disappeared only for about a quarter second (which doesn't even make sense with the update frequency of the F-16's radar). These problems persisted within 20 nm.

This is all made worse by the fact that the simulation in DCS does not have any memory that would help it overcome a briefly lost radar track that reappears on one of the subsequent scans within a certain time period, and correlate the not-so-new track with a track file that's still in memory (which is a capability that the real world radar has to some extent). The result is that the DCS F-16 frequently loses a lot more information than a real world one, and the workload to reacquire it is on the pilot instead of automation.

Together with the other problems that I just listed, the F-16 is currently barely usable for anything other than engaging a single target, because TWS essentially doesn't work at all.

And those are just the F-16-related bugs since the last update, I found a couple more that have nothing to do with the F-16 too, and I only played for ~40 minutes today. It seems that the quality of DCS has gone downhill vertically for some reason.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Aquorys
typos

[Chibawang]

Thank you both. I regularly experience those issues as well, but you articulated them far better than I could have.

[Frederf]

One test I've been meaning to try is simply to TWS bug a target and use a script command to delete the target airplane. The bug should remain extrapolated for up to 13 seconds after the airplane has been erased from existence.

[Geraki]

Please make a TEST CASES scenarios for all mods E.g TC 1  ACM mode Bore - test steps 1 , 2 , 3 , test result , actual behavior -suggested or could fixed result)

how they are working right now and how it is supposed or could-must be in order to help the devs to understand and fix them quicker