Problem with laser rangefinder

[Frederf]

Presumably 5 minutes is ample time to destroy a dozen or so lasers. Time aloft doesn't really tell us much. It's the number, spacing, and duration of the laser cycles.

[skypirate]

I switch the laser before entering the battle zone (at the IP).

Use the target designation only before firing the Vikhr.

Try to minimize the use of the target designation function.

 

After exiting battle zone I switch the laser off to cool it before the next use.

 

With this policy of using the laser I manage to make 2 rearming before problems with the laser rangefinder occur (Usually by that time I have fired 28-30 Vikhrs).

 

Yesterday after the laser malfunction happened again I flew back to FARP did complete shutdown and after a few minutes (3 or so) I got a new heli fresh out of the factory and laser ready to fight. So this solves our problem in some way.:smilewink:

[EtherealN]

I'm using a routine similar to skypirate - I make the chopper "hot" before the ingress point usually, but the laser I keep off until I am positioned and ready for a weapon deployment. Once the attack is completed I turn the laser off again and keep it that way while I reposition myself for my next attack.

 

I still get occassional laser difficulties, but it's usually only after several reloads.

 

I've never managed to get myself a replacement helicopter tho. Anyone know if that is reliant upon whether I land at my designated pad or not?

[skypirate]

I've never managed to get myself a replacement helicopter tho. Anyone know if that is reliant upon whether I land at my designated pad or not?

 

Well I've tried and got replacement only once -

 

 

• The heli had SOME battle damage (Shkval was gone + some holes).
  
• I landed exactly where I took off from (FARP).
  
• There was a full set of utility trucks at the FARP.
  
• Shut down and ground power was set.
  
• About 3 minutes later I got the chopper ready to fly in Cold & Dark state.
  

 

Maybe there is relation between these factors and the replacement but that can be confirmed only by the ED guys.

[Istari]

Ok. Though some issues are present with laser rangefinder, I may also say that:

 

laser rangefinder has limitations: 5 series with intervals of 30 minutes; 16 cycles of 10 seconds with intervals of 5 seconds in each serie. You may be not following these rules in your flights (and make more range counts than it is possible) and this will result in not working rangefinder. Not a bug but a feature.

 

Ok, so maximum target is 80 (16/30 minutes x 5 cycles).

 

Question: when the 1st cycle begin/end (and so on with all 5 cycles)?

 

ex: 1st cycle begin at the mission start, end 30 minutes after mission start, then 2nd cycle begin, and so on.... giving 2h30 limited mission vs. target.

 

or

 

ex: 1st cycle begin at the moment I put the laser switch to stand-by, and, it end 30 minutes later.... the 2nd cycle begin at this time (and so on), leaving 2h30 of mission vs. target after the laser switch is turn to stand-by.

 

or

 

ex: 1st cycle begin at the moment I put the laser switch to stand-by, but can be pause if the laser switch is pull back to off. So we have to figure a way to know how many time remain on the curent cycle. Then, after 30 minutes of usage of the first cycle, the second cycle can begin.. and so on.

 

I search to found some answer.... but niet!:book::cry:

 

So, can someone can clarify this please!:doh::D

Edited February 19, 2009 by Istari
double quote

[zamboni]

To follow up on Istari what is considered a "cycle"

Does locking up a target use up a cycle? or is a "cycle" only mean firing off a Vikhr missile?

I just want to know if I am using the laser the way it should be used or not.

[spooky]

Well, after many testing, i think Ulrich's rule is incorrect. This is a programming bug, not a feature. It stops working even when unlimit fuel + unlimit weapon is enabled.

 

You have around 32 range-finding times. After that, it begins to stop working. Sometimes at 32th, sometimes at 38th, YMMV.

If you've measured < 32 times, just relax, firing ATGM at any time. It doesn't need any 30 minutes rest between 16 measure cycles. Just land, reload missile, and shoot.

If you>32 times, You're no longer able to deploy ATGM, no matter how long you sleep at helipad; unless you crash/respawn.

However, you're still able to measure range for gun. Just flip the laser standby switch, press lock, then you have correct range for the gun.

 

Therefore, use it wisely, make every shot count. Only turn on laser for important targets: SAM, AAA, advancing/defending tank column. Pick harmless remain targets by gun.

[jctrnacty]

Yeah yeah , I have the same problem. Never thought this could be because of laser overuse.

 

It ´s good that i ´m not the only one who has this problem.

 

So is it feature or bug??????

[EtherealN]

jcrnacty, it may be a bug, it may be a feature. All depends on how exactly it occurs when you play. The LRF is meant to fail under certain conditions in the simulator because it will happen if handled thusly in real life. When it happens due to that it's a feature.

 

There are however some problems in it that has been replicated by ED that are not intended and thus class as bug. I surmise from their postings that they either already have found or are looking for a solution to that bug. However, even when the bug is fixed and even if there then is no bugs at all left in that part of the simulation, you can still make your laser misbehave or fail.

[zamboni]

I forgot to post this earlier, but after I read spooky's post, I did a little test with a mission. Tons of targets, unlimited ammo/fuel, starting at a hover in front of the targets.

 

I did two tests. 1) Fire of Vikhrs as fast as the targeting computer will let me at targets (NOT rangefinding in between) and 2) rangefind or fire off Vikhr 16 times. wait half an hour (I fast forwarded time for 30 minutes in a hover), repeat, wait another 30 minutes, until the laser failed.

 

In the first test doing rapid firings (I realized I didn't have to rangefind on other targets after the first lock, so I had maybe 2-3 rangefinds and the rest were Vikhr fires), the laser failed after about 40 uses of the laser.

 

In the second test (with the rest every 16 laser activations) I was able to squeeze out a total of about 53 laser activations.

 

My feeling is that time to laser malfunction is both a feature and a bug. It is meant to fail, but fails too early. Mainly because if I read Ulrich's explanation conservatively (meaning a "cycle" = single rangefind OR Vikhr firing), I should be able to squeeze off more than 53 laser activations.

[skypirate]

Well guys, whether it'a feature or bug - for me doesn't matter at all anymore.

 

No matter what I do trying to save the life of the laser, after 2 and a half loads of Vikhrs the laser just goes mad.

 

So my simple solution to that - I fly once - 12 Vikhrs, come back - rearm - that's another 12. On my second rearming I simply change the heli (RSh+RCtrl+Tab - engines off - parking brakes) and after full startup procedure I go again and with my new laser - blast whatever is left on the field .... Simple, easy - even gives time to go to the toilet and refresh. :thumbup:

 

Useful - yes

Realistic - why not.....

[AoA]

I think this is a bug, I had it happen even after "saving" my laser use... apparently the failure only happens in certain missions (on campaign). I have not been able to replicate in self built missions.

[Ulrich]

You may think whatever you want, I clearly described that it is a feature. Any tests that are done without knowledge of how it should work by design are useless.

[Frakin Toasters]

You have around 32 range-finding times. After that, it begins to stop working. Sometimes at 32th, sometimes at 38th, YMMV.

 

32th. Thirtytooth?

 

But seriously though, this is a huge limitation it would seem. Can you land and have it repaired? blowing stuff up is an integral part of the game, if you lose that ability, you would have to resort to rockets which i suck at using, or the cannon which isn't the most effective weapon in the world.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Frakin' Toasters

[skypirate]

Can you land and have it repaired?

 

Apparently as I was saying above you can. My update to what I wrote here is -you can land at the FARP or airport and have you helicopter changed (after engines shutdown) in about 3 minutes. After that time you just find yourself in the Cold and Dark cockpit of a new Black Shark.

 

In MP you don't need to press any key combination.

In SP I press RCtrl+RShift+Tab

 

Usually I change the helicopter after I come back from the second turnaround...

 

Another thing - you might want to rearm RIGHT after you land (before the helicopter gets changed), as there is a some sort of bug I guess - once I could not rearm after the heli change...

[Frakin Toasters]

Thanks for the advice

[AoA]

Ulrich,

What were the "issues" you referred to in this post? Thanks for your help.

 

 

Ok. Though some issues are present with laser rangefinder, I may also say that:

 

laser rangefinder has limitations: 5 series with intervals of 30 minutes; 16 cycles.....

[monkshood]

I have noticed this too. To begin with all is well, then, after some time, the laser stops showing range to target and I don't get a clear to fire notification and can't shoot. Also, if I switch to manual, I shoot a missile at a locked target, but the missle falls short. Also, if I lock a target and switch to guns, the guns fire off target, unless I'm very close.

 

Dunno what's going on, but it messes up my missions.

 

Ta.

 

Monkshood

[Jack McCoy]

How should we use the laser range finder? - Sparingly?

 

You may think whatever you want, I clearly described that it is a feature. Any tests that are done without knowledge of how it should work by design are useless.

 

Hi Ulrich.

 

Granted it's a feature, is there any usage advice to avoid not frying our laser?

 

As for myself, I shoot Vikhrs without triggering the range finder, since I believe they are beam-riding, and not unguided projectiles (rockets or gun) which require accurate range data to calculate their trajectory. I am wrong?

 

If it's acceptable to shoot Vikhrs without range finding, would such a behavior help stay in the usage envelope or prolong the life of the laser?

 

Is it recommended (useful in regards to the laser burnout feature) to reset the laser right after impact of the missiles instead of waiting for the countdown?

 

Or is it recommended to put the Laser Off/Standby switch to OFF between usage?

 

Thank you.

[EtherealN]

Or is it recommended to put the Laser Off/Standby switch to OFF between usage?

 

I'm not sure I've seen notice of it actually being recommended in any official way, but I do make sure that whenever I have no use of the laser I have it turned off - especially if what I'm doing is solely scanning the terrain in search of targets. With laser on it's easy to keep rangefinding "by mistake" and that can (from my own non-scientifically-tested experience) cause burnout, so since you really only need ranging information once you have found a target that you want to engage and is reasonably confident is close enough I keep it off.

 

Since I started using that technique I have had very very few laser burnouts - though it has happened on stupidly long missions anyhow.

 

Technically I suppose it is better to just keep track of how much you have used it and make sure to stay within the parameters as listed by Ulrich earlier in the thread, but personally that's a bit much work so I go with the off strategy.

 

When you say that you launch Vikhrs without triggering the range finder I'm a bit confused though - laser on should be necessary to get ranging information, which in turn is (or should be, afaik) necessary to get a valid firing solution, wherefore launching without ranging information would be impossible. Unless you are launching with manual override on, then I suppose it might work. Is that what you are doing?

 

But overall (and I know this is the obvious one that most people will already have though of) the most important thing is to just ensure that you wait out the countdown. AFAIK that countdown is not that "I will beam this long" (unless you are in designate mode), but rather "wait this long before using me again"?

[Frakin Toasters]

Y'know, it's weird, i've played this sim a lot, and i am very frivolous with the laser, in that i never pay any attention to it, or worry about it burning out. And so far, it has never been an issue to me.

[Jack McCoy]

When you say that you launch Vikhrs without triggering the range finder I'm a bit confused though - laser on should be necessary to get ranging information, which in turn is (or should be, afaik) necessary to get a valid firing solution, wherefore launching without ranging information would be impossible. Unless you are launching with manual override on, then I suppose it might work. Is that what you are doing?

 

But overall (and I know this is the obvious one that most people will already have though of) the most important thing is to just ensure that you wait out the countdown. AFAIK that countdown is not that "I will beam this long" (unless you are in designate mode), but rather "wait this long before using me again"?

 

I do activate the range finder on the first Vikhr, to get the Shoot © in the HUD. After, I just designate. My point is that the laser must be active, which it becomes after launch, even if you didn't have Target Lock (TA). As I seem to notice in the attached trk-track file, the range info is not valid for the remaining target - but still I hit them with pinpoint accuracy. Forgive me the one shot in manual override, since the erroneous range (0.2km) was rejected by the targeting computer. I get right back in Auto mode after.

 

Finally, with this gathering of knowledgeable and eager-to-learn people, we come to the conclusion that there is an issue, be it lack of documentation or bug.

 

Someone pointed out "Unlimited weapons"... It would be nice that the burnout feature be disabled when Unlimted is ON. Or else, it's kinda useless.

 

---

Side note: I got a snag during this flight. Landed to check, to find out the NAV power switch had been left off by LWIN-Home (Auto-Start cheat)... :noexpression:

Vikhr without Target Lock - Jack McCoy.trk

[EtherealN]

I'll have a look after some errands and see - it's possible that we're talking about the same method but just using different words. :P

 

On your side note though - yeah, the Lwin-Home can be a bit hit-and-miss, since it isn't actually performing the checks we humans do, it just runs through a command list. If something is off-kilter when you start it or if you do something while it's running it can cause an incomplete startup. (My favourite is to turn something on before it has gotten there or turn it off afterwards, it'll get nicely confused. :P There are probably more ways to confuse it but I haven't done a thorough search.)

 

I do recommend learning the manual start, since there's less risk of confused autostart causing issues. (Unless you do know the manual start but just use the "cheat" to save time, in which case you should please ignore me. :P )

[Allo]

Some guys were giving idea of changing the helicopter (land, wait 3 minutes, get the new one) is solving the not working rangefinder problem, however if this is included in the groung crew maintenance routine would be more realistic. Maybe this should be considered in the patch??

I think this is a great idea.

Also doesn't seem random. Pretty much happens at the same time into a mission for me.

[HansRoaming]

I know the laser range finder burning out so much is a real life feature but does it still happen in the KA50s of 2009? Does this happen to western laser range finders? Is this the state of the art in Russian laser manufacture or did Kamov buy the lot from a man in the pub for $20?