S-13, S-24B Tutorial (for aiming)

[Vecihi Hürkuş]

Hello,

i have the following problem:

So i wanted to learn, how to aim, when using the S-13 and S-24B rockets. I found a Sight Depression Angle Table (look attachment please) from Chuck's Guide (thank you Chuck) and did a little math. With the given parameters (for level flight, S-24B) 200kph, 2000m and 6° 00' i calculated my AGL as 209m (sine(6°)*2000m=209m). 

So when i fly with those parameters at level flight, and shoot when the gunsight reticle is over the target, the rockets fall way behind the target.

My conclusion is, it looks like i did something wrong. Can someone please explain to me, what did i wrong or respectively how can i shoot with those mentioned rockets more accurately (i dont expect pinpoint accuracy from those rockets and the ASP-17V)?

Thank You

Edited May 23, 2022 by Vecihi Hürkuş

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, would it be possible for you to include a short track replay showing this scenario 

thanks

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Vecihi Hürkuş said:

Hello,

i have the following problem:

So i wanted to learn, how to aim, when using the S-13 and S-24B rockets. I found a Sight Depression Angle Table (look attachment please) from Chuck's Guide (thank you Chuck) and did a little math. With the given parameters (for level flight, S-24B) 200kph, 2000m and 6° 00' i calculated my AGL as 209m (sine(6°)*2000m=209m). 

So when i fly with those parameters at level flight, and shoot when the gunsight reticle is over the target, the rockets fall way behind the target.

My conclusion is, it looks like i did something wrong. Can someone please explain to me, what did i wrong or respectively how can i shoot with those mentioned rockets more accurately (i dont expect pinpoint accuracy from those rockets and the ASP-17V)?

Thank You

 

This is to be expected IMO. There are a few things at play here. 
 

One, these tables are actually for 0-10 degrees in the original manual. The numbers are identical. I believe they match mostly for level flight, but not perfect. 
 

2nd, what speed are you doing? 
 

Using the numbers for 250 kmh. I have little to no issues. At 250 kmh the nose is only a few degrees down, so you are practically level. 300 kmh is a different story, requiring almost 7-10 degrees nose down. Understand that even if these tables for 0-10 degrees, it’s not nose 0-10 degrees attitude. It’s nose at 0-10 degrees attitude at 0 AOA. And AOA like wind will push rockets. Even if they are truly level rocket tables, the idea implied is that AOA is zero. So if you use 300 kmh numbers. The negative AOA is magnitudes greater then any other speed, pushes the rocket up, and makes them fly farther and land long behind the target. 
 

There is likely a Third factor for S-24. S-13 has excellent ballistics, almost always hits near boresight as long as you use faster speeds. But the slower the speed, and the worse the ballistics, the more the pipper is far below boresight.
 

  Mi-24 auto ranging is based off of not only assuming level ground, but only measures range based off of where boresight points, not where pipper points. This is why S-8OFP2 always goes long at long ranges, becuase the pipper is so far below boresight, the range boresight is looking at IS WAY LONGER then the actual range the pipper is looking. This means that range calculated by auto ranging is greater then needed. Making the ballistic computer in CCIP think that rocket pipper needs to be lower then it really needs to be, and rockets thus going long. 
 

  With S-13/24, and using auto ranging, it means you fire way too close for your selected table range(since the range show on pipper is too long, as boresight is looking at point farther away then depressed pipper), and rockets go long. So becuase the lower the pipper depression below boresight, the greater the error, it means that using S-24 and low speeds makes the error largest. 
 

So basically, you have a few options. 
 

S-13 will always be more accurate. 
 The closer you are, the more accurate you will be, as the closer you are,  you can have less pipper depression, and thus less error. Same with speed, the faster the speed, the less error, until you run into the first error where the tables are not counting in the negative AOA needed at 300 kmh. Problem here being while 250 kmh values work pretty well for S-24, you don’t even have 250 kmh values for S-13. So it’s really either 200 kmh and realize they may go a little long, or make your own shooting values. 
 

As I want to be able to fire at 300 kmh, I just made my own weapon aiming numbers. You can find them in my weapons guide on the first page.  If you want to make your own tables, active pause is best way. Or even stadiametric range finding if target is big enough. Other then that, I have good luck with 250 kmh value on these tables. 

Aside from that, here is the original tables showing that they are for 0-10 degree dives. S-5/8 tables say same thing. You will see that compared to the table you posted from Chucks guide (which is also in ED QuickStart guide where Chuck likely got it), has identical numbers for the numbers it has 

There is a reason it was said in pre release interview, that pilots waited until CCIP pipper and boresight were relatively aligned to fire. The same error happens with pipper above boresight, calculated range is too short. But this usually happens at such small ranges, the error is negligible. 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Vecihi Hürkuş]

vor einer Stunde schrieb BIGNEWY:

Hi, would it be possible for you to include a short track replay showing this scenario 

thanks

Hi, here is my track file. But @AeriaGloria explained it really well.

Thank you all

weapons range s-24b.trk

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, Vecihi Hürkuş said:

Hi, here is my track file. But @AeriaGloria explained it really well.

Thank you all

weapons range s-24b.trk 4.37 MB · 1 download

Glad to help. Wondering why S-8KOM/S-5KO we’re the most accurate rockets are what got me looking into all the different errors in the auto ranging/CCIP system. That there is more then assuming flat ground. Even if we had laser range finder and could take out level ground as an error, this would still be very significant. It is basically the one thing stopping you from using the 3.5 km max range of the sight depending on weapon. S-8KOM/S-5Ko Can be pretty accurate to 3 km if your fast and dive steep enough for it to be close to boresight. Same with gun, except it not being aimed 1 degree up like rockets hurts it. 

 

I always wonder what it would be like to not only have a laser range finder but have the auto CCIP Some sort of loop constantly correcting range by taking to into account CCIP depression. But the real truth likely is, in reality rockets are not very accurate. So the system is “good enough” and not worth sweating the details too much. DCS and it’s damage models are a different story

Edited May 23, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[AeriaGloria]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:30 AM, Vecihi Hürkuş said:

Hi, here is my track file. But @AeriaGloria explained it really well.

Thank you all

weapons range s-24b.trk 4.37 MB · 3 downloads

I did forget one thing. If you are using the ED/chucks guides tables, specifically the diving ones. Best ones will be 10 degree. As the radar altimeter starts to lose accuracy at 15 degrees, and starts to over estimate range, which also leads to rockets/guns going long. If using the 10 degree dive tables target -8-10 m/s descent when entering dive. At 180 kmh that will result in around 0 degrees AOA. And the manuals support this by saying you should start descent 50 meters above firing altitude, and it takes 4-5 seconds to accelerate from the 150 kmh to 180 kmh firing speed. Which is often why I start higher and slower to give me more time  
 

If it something that works with auto mode, since it is gyro sight it also has 1-2 second settling time, but that doesn’t apply to S-13/24 of course. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[fargo007]

Every scenario you're deploying rockets in is going to be so unique and likely so immediate, that there won't be any time to look up information like this, and then assure you are flying at the specific altitude, speed, and dive angle the table calls for. It's good to know the limits and parameters though.

Much like when you spit out a piece of chewing gum and pretty much know where it's going to land, most often you're going to send your first rocket salvo based on your experience and gut feeling about the entire situation, and then adjust off the impacts.

This is definitely a perishable skill, especially moving through rocket types with very different terminal ballistics and sight options.

One of the coolest things about the Mi-24 is the wide variety of ordnance it carries, but this has an obligation of ongoing practice attached to it.

[AeriaGloria]

3 hours ago, fargo007 said:

Every scenario you're deploying rockets in is going to be so unique and likely so immediate, that there won't be any time to look up information like this, and then assure you are flying at the specific altitude, speed, and dive angle the table calls for. It's good to know the limits and parameters though.

Much like when you spit out a piece of chewing gum and pretty much know where it's going to land, most often you're going to send your first rocket salvo based on your experience and gut feeling about the entire situation, and then adjust off the impacts.

This is definitely a perishable skill, especially moving through rocket types with very different terminal ballistics and sight options.

One of the coolest things about the Mi-24 is the wide variety of ordnance it carries, but this has an obligation of ongoing practice attached to it.

Personal preference For immediate thoughtless deployment I always use S-5/8 with auto mode. But whenever I use S-13/24, I usually do it in a pre planned strike. Where I know what I’m hitting when I take off. Plan my strike accordingly. They are not good for mobile vehicular targets but large buildings and fortifications. 
 

So for me if I’m using 13/24, it’s like a Viggen run. One or two strikes with everything prepared in advance. S-5/8 if I need to go out and take out vehicles in random situations. If we had auto mode for 13/24, that would be different. But since we don’t, I think it’s pretty useless to take them for anything but pre planned targets, but that’s just me.
 

  On Rotorheads Atleast, once I clear an area of random vehicles with S-5/8, I go back and load S-24, and use any of the profiles to take out the factories, pre planning my attack path along the route with the flattest ground for most accurate ranging, and to hit the side with the biggest surface area. Especially S-24, it’s 3.5 degree down pylons, and it’s low speed making it sensitive to speed change, makes them very hard to use unless you practice while keeping your speed and altitude/dive angles as consistent as possible. But yeah, personal choice. If we had proper fragmentation, I think not not having auto mode would be much less of an issue. And I’m pretty sure our rockets are more accurate then they are suppossed to be to make up for lack of fragmentation, which if they had more spread would also make auto mode less useful for S-5/8.

In Afghanistan, when switching from 5 to 8, they had no auto mode for S-8 back then, and it was still an upgrade!!!

[fargo007]

We use S-24's quite often, and without any detailed planning with tables or data.  And our first impact is usually not far off target. S-13's we use far less, as you only get two pods of them. S-13's and two bombs, with 4x ATGMs do make a nice loadout though. 

There's just no substitute for practice, and knowing intuitively how each weapon's ballistics apply to each situation.

I see a lot more applicability in using data for bombing, as there's a tougher solution there to work out. With rockets, they are always going to point themselves into the wind, and will pretty much fly straight. And they are an area effects weapon at best so their margin of error increases with distance in a linear way.

Before getting the Mi-24, I assumed that the S-24's would be longer range than the others, and was disappointed to find out they're really not. 

They do hit REALLY hard though! 

[AeriaGloria]

2 minutes ago, fargo007 said:

We use S-24's quite often, and without any detailed planning with tables or data.  And our first impact is usually not far off target. S-13's we use far less, as you only get two pods of them. S-13's and two bombs, with 4x ATGMs do make a nice loadout though. 

There's just no substitute for practice, and knowing intuitively how each weapon's ballistics apply to each situation.

I see a lot more applicability in using data for bombing, as there's a tougher solution there to work out. With rockets, they are always going to point themselves into the wind, and will pretty much fly straight. And they are an area effects weapon at best so their margin of error increases with distance in a linear way.

Before getting the Mi-24, I assumed that the S-24's would be longer range than the others, and was disappointed to find out they're really not. 

They do hit REALLY hard though! 

Yeah good old circle of action. I also only use one profile for the thing you mention, it’s easier to practice and remember and build skills holding to one airspeed, altitude, depression. 
 

Unfortunetly though you really need a human CPG to make the most of bombing. 
 

I’ve seen places quote farther range from S-13 then S-24, I always assumed it was becuase, the S-24 has much worse ballistics and accuracy. 

[fargo007]

There's a spot I find in the S-24 trajectory where they can be sent long, or they go short.  It's hard to describe this, but if you cross that line either way, your rocket goes either way long, or way short. 

[AeriaGloria]

21 minutes ago, fargo007 said:

There's a spot I find in the S-24 trajectory where they can be sent long, or they go short.  It's hard to describe this, but if you cross that line either way, your rocket goes either way long, or way short. 

  Our S-13OF goes 490-590 m/s. S-5KO goes 470 m/s. S-8 KOM is 600-610 m/s. Since the DCS rocket doesn’t exist the Mi-8 manual claims S-8OFP2 goes 450 m/s. 
 
  The S-24 goes 405 m/s. It’s the slowest rocket, and I think the most affected by speed of launching vehicle.
 

   Also all other pods aim 1 degree above boresight, but S-24 APU racks aim it 3.5 degree below the nose, so I would think since In a helicopter positive AOA is rare during rocket attack, it’s always being launched with a lot of negative AOA pushing it up. I think that low speed and highly variable angle of launch make the perfect storm of a rocket that can have VERY different ballistics depending on small speed and AOA changes. 
 

Like you, I use 2 km essentially as it’s practical limit. While S-13 is largely predictable. Honestly, if we could carry 4x S-13, I would probably never use S-24. One pod S-13 has more explosive then 1 S-24, has good ballistics, pod aims it slightly up like all other rockets but S-24 

Like you, I appreciate the variety of ordinance available. Would be crazy if we had that test loadout of S-25. It’s almost a shame the only other weapons we will get are R-60 and Door gunner 

Edited June 2, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[fargo007]

Yep, the math doesn't lie on the S-13's. Four of those would be way better. But as we have it now four S-24's are a better choice. Really surprised no UPKs also. 

The absolute worthless thing we have are those grenade pods. I really want to love them. I do.  

[AeriaGloria]

7 hours ago, fargo007 said:

Yep, the math doesn't lie on the S-13's. Four of those would be way better. But as we have it now four S-24's are a better choice. Really surprised no UPKs also. 

The absolute worthless thing we have are those grenade pods. I really want to love them. I do.  

Never even tried the grenade pods. Pretty worthless since they are restricted to only be used with GUV gun pods on other main pylons. 
 

Yeah UPK is an export only weapon, no Soviet/Russian 24s could carry them. Pretty sad. In some ways they may have been more tactically useful then S-5/8 rockets if they had auto CCIP. But no one could pry rockets from my cold dead hands. My export manual also says that, they would have been compatible with S-5/S-8 rockets, and bombs. I know it’s not strictly realistic from POV of simulating a Russian Mi-24P as they are today, but it would be cool and I wouldn’t complain. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by AeriaGloria