George won't fire any hellfires

[Blackhawk163]

Yeah, aside from that one mission and that one particular time, I can’t reproduce it . I tried and I tried. Fcr on or off the ai fired this time, rather consistent I might add, if not inaccurately. 
 

What I can understand is why I can’t fire the radar hellfires from the back seat. The minute I engage the FCR the missiles become inactive. Change the view mode to TADS or what have you and poof right back to being active. And no, George isn’t activated at all when this happens. I guess I’ll let it have all the fun in firing and I’ll focus on the Butt-lites after I pass every obstacle

[Floyd1212]

From the back seat (assuming you have a mixed load-out of Limas and Kilos), when you have the FCR as the active sight, it will switch to RF (Limas) and you can deploy those on your radar returns.  If you have HMD as your active sight (i.e. not the FCR) it will switch to SAL (Kilos) and you can deploy those, as long as someone is lasing.

[GeoS72]

@Blackhawk163,

I've found it exceptionally easy to duplicate the problem with a full compliment of AGM-114Ls (Limas, aka Radar Hellfire) or with a mix of rockets and Limas. Use George AI to pick up targets and keep him in the "Yellow" (Consent to Fire required). No FCR is required.

When I normally fly, I'm loaded up with 16 Limas and 1,200 rounds of 25mm. The gun is WAS'ed to me while George AI has the Limas WAS'ed.

If you could run in a similar configuration, then I'll be curious to see your results.

[Blackhawk163]

52 minutes ago, GeoS72 said:

@Blackhawk163,

I've found it exceptionally easy to duplicate the problem with a full compliment of AGM-114Ls (Limas, aka Radar Hellfire) or with a mix of rockets and Limas. Use George AI to pick up targets and keep him in the "Yellow" (Consent to Fire required). No FCR is required.

When I normally fly, I'm loaded up with 16 Limas and 1,200 rounds of 25mm. The gun is WAS'ed to me while George AI has the Limas WAS'ed.

If you could run in a similar configuration, then I'll be curious to see your results.

 I'll give it a shot on the Caucus training range right now

[Blackhawk163]

If you forgive some of the erratic flying, trying to juggle toddler and my dinner There were some instances where George wouldn't fire, but I chalk that up to me not holding steady in some instances and the other I would hold the consent to fire a bit too long, upon release it would fire off the hellfire. It's a long track as I even went back to rearm and try another round of 16 both far and close and just flying like a fool. That round it wouldn't always fire when consented, but again I was flying around like a clown during the majority of the time as I was still trying to eat.

agmL.trk

[Floyd1212]

3 hours ago, GeoS72 said:

I've found it exceptionally easy to duplicate the problem with a full compliment of AGM-114Ls (Limas, aka Radar Hellfire) or with a mix of rockets and Limas. Use George AI to pick up targets and keep him in the "Yellow" (Consent to Fire required). No FCR is required.

When I normally fly, I'm loaded up with 16 Limas and 1,200 rounds of 25mm. The gun is WAS'ed to me while George AI has the Limas WAS'ed.

If you could run in a similar configuration, then I'll be curious to see your results.

Can you run a short mission and post the track?

I know there were some tracks posted earlier in the thread, but I got the impression they were long tracks where the action happened toward the end.

On 7/13/2024 at 8:25 PM, GeoS72 said:

I also do not understand why this thread is heavily restricted with file sizes.

Also, this may be that your 200MB of personal storage space on the server is getting full.  Go through your attachments and remove some of the older ones or the largest ones to free up some space.

[GeoS72]

@Floyd1212,

Thanks for the tip on checking personal storage space. I did post tracks/logs to 2 short Fast Missions. I was limited to files size so links to download them from my Google drive are provided.

I'll try to get another fast mission captured and post my results over this weekend.

In the meantime, I sure would appreciate this thread being elevated to the bugs section and/or get some feedback from ED.

 

[GeoS72]

Ok, here are 2 sets of log/track files for a test mission in the Caucasus map. I wasn't able to duplicate the problem as we described above. However, I did experience 1 laser ranging event at a range of ~9,900 meters then got no other lase events. After flying towards the target range, George AI gave me an "in-range" at ~7,800 meters. There were no other laser ranging events. This happened when targeting the 1st vehicle on both runs.

DH Test Pilot-Long Wait 1st Target-2.trk dcs Test Pilot 1st Target Long Wait.log dcs Test Pilot 1st Target Long Wait-2.log DH Test Pilot-Long Wait 1st Target.trk

[Floyd1212]

7 hours ago, GeoS72 said:

Ok, here are 2 sets of log/track files for a test mission in the Caucasus map. I wasn't able to duplicate the problem as we described above. However, I did experience 1 laser ranging event at a range of ~9,900 meters then got no other lase events. After flying towards the target range, George AI gave me an "in-range" at ~7,800 meters. There were no other laser ranging events. This happened when targeting the 1st vehicle on both runs.

I watched the first of the two tracks.  I think what is happening is you lift off and have George look for those targets and he finds them out beyond 8km.  He lases the selected target and the missile gets the target data from the TADS, at which point George will not lase anything again.  Eventually, you get within 8km and George says the target is in range and you rifle.

Even if you tell him to scan the area again and select the same target from the list, he won't lase it a second time.  Or if you have him scan again and you pick a new target, he won't lase again.  To clear the missile data you have to either fire the missile, deWAS missiles, or switch to SAL and back to RF.

When I have George using RF missiles I will sometimes have nothing WASed for him while I have him scan for targets and then force him to lase or not as needed.  Then when I have the target I want, I switch him over to RF missiles and the target data gets loaded to the missile.

It would be nice if George would blip the first detent to update ranging info periodically.  (I know there are other threads discussing this in relation to using the gun.)  Or, introduce another step in deploying RF missiles for him where he finds and ranges targets when you select them from the list, then on the first "consent to fire" command you give him he lases and gets the target data then waits, then you "consent to fire" a second time and he rifles the missile.

[GeoS72]

@Floyd1212,

I do not want to drift off topic here. The chief complaint is that George AI has trouble lasing a target and then refusing to fire when in launch parameters. My latest post touches on part of the problem: lasing the target when beyond 8km. In the last instance, I got range info at ~9.8km. Once George shut off the laser, the range data decreased until ~9.3km. Then without re-lasing, I kept flying towards the target then George claimed the target was in range. Suddenly, the range data went from ~9,300 m to ~7,800 m. Again, there was no laser fire to re-range.

From my previous experience, George would lase the target approx 5 times at ranges between 9.9km - 8.3 km. The interval at which George would lase is very short at those distances. However, once inside 8km, that frequency suddenly decreases to an eternity. Additionally, George would delay lasing a target when it is inside the 8km range. I've had instances when I'm at 6km and would get within a kill zone of a vehicle because the AI refuses to designate a target until the helo is within 3km. Then to top things off, at that close range, the AI would refuse to fire.

[GeoS72]

This track should better show the ranging issue with the first target. George lased target at ~9.6km and then nothing. I cycled his status from MSL to No WAS and then back to MSL. He said target was within range but did not lase at first. The range was at 6.8km until he lased the target again.

This problem appears to happen when there is more action occurring in the battle space. So more data is needed.

Additionally, this issue is problematic to capture for me. There are days when this bug happens frequently while other days, it's not a big deal.

DH Test Pilot-1st Target Range Issue.trk dcs DH Test Pilot-1st Target Range Issue.log

[Derbroomaster]

7 hours ago, GeoS72 said:

@Floyd1212,

From my previous experience, George would lase the target approx 5 times at ranges between 9.9km - 8.3 km. The interval at which George would lase is very short at those distances. However, once inside 8km, that frequency suddenly decreases to an eternity. Additionally, George would delay lasing a target when it is inside the 8km range. I've had instances when I'm at 6km and would get within a kill zone of a vehicle because the AI refuses to designate a target until the helo is within 3km. Then to top things off, at that close range, the AI would refuse to fire.

Not only this, but I had an instance today where George simply didn't lase the target at all after tracking the target selected from his list of seen targets. It's sitting in his sights and nothing is happening.

[Floyd1212]

2 hours ago, Derbroomaster said:

Not only this, but I had an instance today where George simply didn't lase the target at all after tracking the target selected from his list of seen targets. It's sitting in his sights and nothing is happening.

Was this with Limas? Was target data already sent to the missile?

[Derbroomaster]

This was with Limas. Clear view of target. In the TEDAC. No data sent because George would not lase.

[Rongor]

16 minutes ago, Derbroomaster said:

This was with Limas. Clear view of target. In the TEDAC. No data sent because George would not lase.

in such cases, cycling his weapons will make him lase

[Derbroomaster]

2 minutes ago, Rongor said:

in such cases, cycling his weapons will make him lase

Is this not a bug?

[GeoS72]

Gentlemen,

This is a bug that should be elevated and researched by ED. If you have to constantly cycle between No WAS and MSL just to get George AI to lase the target then that is a problem. I provided several track & log files that could be investigated with the right tools.

Even in Wag's video that showcases the Lima operation from the CPG seat, it does not require the cycling between No WAS and MSL.

This IS a problem and must be addressed. Period and end of story.

 

 

[Derbroomaster]

I first reported this in April and came up with workarounds that no longer work. We should not have to continue to develop a body of workarounds for features that should function.

[GeoS72]

Not to mention, the OP complained about this problem back in July 2022. That's 2 yrs and counting without any solution or acknowledgement.

[Glide]

Does George have an issue with altitude?  I flew up high enough to be out of range of ground unit fire, and George would not fire on them even under 1nm distance.

[GeoS72]

@Glide,

I do not believe there is an altitude problem. I've been up at altitude between 750 - 1,500 ft with a clear line of sight yet experienced the no lasing logic problem.

What were the conditions that lead to George AI not firing in your situation? How high was the helo?

[Glide]

23 minutes ago, GeoS72 said:

What were the conditions that lead to George AI not firing in your situation? How high was the helo?

I was high enough that I wasn't getting a readout on the altitude tape.  Not sure if that's a bug or by design.  Could be I just got him into a confused state.  New patch today, so, new test to run.  I'll keep you posted.

[GeoS72]

@Glide, this is a hotfix patch. I would bet dimes to donuts that this bug was not fixed.

It is normal for the altitude readout to disappear in Transition Mode. It means you are about 1,400 ft MSL. If you switch the HMD to NAV mode, then the MSL altitude will be displayed. Look at like this: that is Boeing's (McDonnell Douglas') way to say, "fly lower!"

If you experience the no-fire/no-lase problem, then please post your DCS log and track file.

[Glide]

Will do.  A couple of quick flights today, and he was not responsive.  I'll kick the tires more thoroughly tomorrow.

Edited July 23, 2024 by Glide

[Blackhawk163]

George has to give you two indicators before firing: Laser on, the laser off before firing. Scud Busters mission I had it firing like crazy, so much so I had to turn on auto consent because at times it would fire on the same target within 5 seconds of the last. If that mission weren't so long, I would've saved and posted the track because there was time where the A.I. would just laze and that's it, I wouldn't get the second indicator. I think in my instance I was flying to evade BMP fire from units stuck in trees (annoying!) so that could play into it. I know it happens; I just can't replicate to near 100% like others have.