R29 powered J-10 1991

[F-2]

hello, I wanted to ask this here since Deka has better access to Chinese language sources and insider sources then anyone I know. I wanted to ask about an early version of the J-10 powered by an R29 J-10. I have no question it existed but I haven't been able to conclusively prove if it was a mock up (albeit a metal one) or a prototype.

 

https://m.sohu.com/a/524597001_260616/?pvid=000115_3w_a

Quote

In fact, the J-10 fighter has experienced several twists and turns in the selection and configuration of the power system. In 1984, the J-10 fighter development project codenamed "Project 10" was officially launched, and the duck static and unstable layout was initially determined as the final design scheme. However, it is followed by the selection of an advanced jet engine for the J-10 fighter. At that time, the jet engines for various types of fighters existing and under development in China, from turbojet 7, turbojet 13 imitating Soviet engines to imitation turbofan 9 and self-developed turbofan 6, could not meet the requirements of J-10 fighters, especially the gap in thrust indicators.
At that time, the United States and the Soviet Union began to develop a new generation of large-thrust turbofan engines while the third-generation fighter was developed and launched. However, with the strength of China's aviation industry, it is not possible to develop a new type of high-thrust turbofan engine while ensuring the research and development progress of the J-10 fighter. It happened that our country obtained the Soviet MiG-23 fighter from Egypt, and thus obtained the R29-300 turbojet engine with a stre of more than 10 tons of man-forced thrust. This was also the most advanced foreign jet engine that China could come into contact with at that time. Its 12.5 tons of aggravation thrust could basically meet the performance requirements of J-10 fighters.
Therefore, while determining the design plan of the J-10 fighter, China's aviation industry department decided to adopt a two-step strategy in the power system - first, imitate the Soviet-made R29-300 turbojet engine, codenamed vortex spray 15, and strive to complete the design as soon as possible to ensure that the J-10 fighter arrives to There are few power systems that can be used. The second step is to start the development of a new high-thrust turbofan engine codenamed Turbofan 10. Using the Turbojet 15 turbojet engine to equip J-10 fighter prototypes for test flight, the development of the Turbofan-10 "Taihang" high-thrust turbofan engine will be completed as soon as possible, and finally realize the design goal of "dual combination" of J-10 and Turbofan 10.

/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fp2.itc.cn%2Fq_70%2Fimages03%2F20220222%2Facdb421ce89846cd9688f15d1a9f03ab.jpeg&hash=27aa95d100c4a0ee2b43171497595db4

The early J-10 fighter full-size metal prototypes also used an oval leather-hosted inlet similar to the F-16.
However, to the surprise of Chinese aviation industry technicians, even if the physical object of the Soviet R29-300 turbojet engine is obtained for mapping and simulation, the research and development of the turbojet 15 engine is still very difficult. For us, the technical span from vortex 7/13 to vortex 15 is too large. Therefore, from 1984 to 1991, the engine research and development unit of China's aviation industry only completed the full-size metal prototype of the turbojet 15 engine. This year, the full-size metal prototype of the turbojet 15 engine was also equipped with the full-size metal prototype of the J-10 fighter, formally achieving the goal of two-machine integration. It is worth noting that at this time, the full-size metal prototype of the J-10 fighter still uses an oval leather-hosted air inlet similar to the F-16. Moreover, at that time, the rear fuselage and engine compartment of the J-10 were designed according to the size of Turbojet 15.
If the Turbojet 15 engine was continued to be developed as a J-10 fighter as planned at that time, even if the development progress can be guaranteed, the reliability of this engine may have many adverse effects on the test flight of the fighter. At that time, the replacement of the J-8III fighter with a Turbojet 14 engine was one of the most typical lessons. Moreover, according to the development trend of the third-generation foreign fighter at that time, the high fuel consumption turbojet engine has long been completely eliminated. Unexpectedly, everything turned around in 1991. That year, our country decided to introduce the world's most advanced Su-27 twin-produced heavy fighter from the Soviet Union. For this reason, after learning about the performance of the AL-31F high-thrust turbofan engine equipped by the Su-27 fighter, the relevant units found that the engine meets the requirements of the J-10 fighter, and its technical level is far from comparable to that of the imitation R29-300 turbojet 15 engine.
Therefore, after consultation and consultation with the leaders of the army, the relevant departments of the aviation industry finally decided to stop the imitation of the turbojet 15 engine in 1993 and select the Russian AL-31F high-thrust turbofan engine as the power system of the J-10 fighter. Due to its excellent performance and reliable leather, it will not only be used as a power system for the test flight stage of the J-10 fighter, but also continue to be used as a supporting power system for future mass production models. Of course, Russia also needs to improve and modify the AL-31F high-thrust turbofan engine in accordance with the installation requirements of the J-10 fighter, mainly to move the accessory receiver and other components under the engine to adapt to the single-engine and single vertical tail design. This is the AL-31FN that China purchased in large quantities all year round, and Russia later even developed a vector thrust version of this engine.

https://www.zhihu.com/question/54961782

Quote

Hate to embrace the comparison of the two groups of emblems. Everyone also hopes to see the difference between these two groups of emblems. Recently, I have been pondering. What is the reason for this situation? Song Wen looked around at the hole in the venue and then continued: "After repeated calculations, he came to the conclusion that this is due to the replacement of the engine of the aircraft. The shape of the turbofan engine is larger. When changing the engine, the size of the rear fuselage is thickened. This will cause the force to increase. At the same time, it seems that the power of the two secondary engines is similar in theory. However, in actual use, the turbojet is changed to a turbofan. There are obvious differences in fan speed characteristics with different vertebral forces. Two A Two A Two

https://m.haiwainet.cn/middle/3541083/2018/0323/content_31285340_1.html

this is NOT 1001

 

Intake was different and the rear fuselage was more narrow. avionics where supposedly intended to be closer to the Lavi

 

anyone know if this was a mock up or a full size aircraft. Some Russian sources I found claim it was which most Chinese translate to mock up but I'm not sure about trusting translation. It was all metal and had a WP-15 (R29) installed which seems unusual. If true it flew seven years before the J-10 we know. supposedly it was active uptil 1993 before the AL-31 was selected.  

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by F-2

[PLAAF]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:00 AM, F-2 said:

anyone know if this was a mock up or a full size aircraft. Some Russian sources I found claim it was which most Chinese translate to mock up but I'm not sure about trusting translation. It was all metal and had a WP-15 (R29) installed which seems unusual. If true it flew seven years before the J-10 we know. supposedly it was active uptil 1993 before the AL-31 was selected.  

1521774141962623,w_480.jpg.opdownload 35.97 kB · 1 download

It was not unusual. Original J-10 prototype was almost completely different plane compare to the production variant J-10A.

It went through an intensive redesign process.

Notice there was no connective bars between the radar con and the air intake, the intake is also rounded instead of square shaped like the J-10A. That was because the development for the indigenous radar had fallen behind so they had to use a Russia radar as a stopping-gap. But the Russian radar had different weight and dimension, so they had to add the bars to support it.

the second thing is its engine. Development  of WS-10 was also fallen behind and the WP-15 wasn't entirely desirable. So once again they had to use Russian engine. But the Russian engine was significantly longer and heavier, and they had different fuel path way and cables. Because of this, the entire plane had to be redesigned. The old fly-by-wire was also threw out since the weight distribution was changed.

I may need to write another thread in the future about the development of J-10, if I have enough free time.

[F-2]

5 hours ago, PLAAF said:

It was not unusual. Original J-10 prototype was almost completely different plane compare to the production variant J-10A.

It went through an intensive redesign process.

Notice there was no connective bars between the radar con and the air intake, the intake is also rounded instead of square shaped like the J-10A. That was because the development for the indigenous radar had fallen behind so they had to use a Russia radar as a stopping-gap. But the Russian radar had different weight and dimension, so they had to add the bars to support it.

the second thing is its engine. Development  of WS-10 was also fallen behind and the WP-15 wasn't entirely desirable. So once again they had to use Russian engine. But the Russian engine was significantly longer and heavier, and they had different fuel path way and cables. Because of this, the entire plane had to be redesigned. The old fly-by-wire was also threw out since the weight distribution was changed.

I may need to write another thread in the future about the development of J-10, if I have enough free time.

If you ever do I would love that. Thank you!

 

 

do you know if this version ever flew? Or was it a mock up only?

[diaoshi]

R29没有装上过J10首飞就是使用的AL31这个金属模型只是个辅助设计模型当年J10开发的时候3D建模辅助设计并没有那么普及，然后我想说中国三代机的开发故事是一个庞大的故事PLAAF如果想要写清楚不是这么容易

[F-2]

Hey does anybody have a three view of the original J-10?

[carss]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:58 PM, F-2 said:

Hey does anybody have a three view of the original J-10?

Like this?

[F-2]

5 hours ago, carss said:

Like this?

Yes but of the one I pictured in the first post.

[PLAAF]

19 hours ago, F-2 said:

Yes but of the one I pictured in the first post.

That is going to be hard to find.

[F-2]

4 hours ago, PLAAF said:

That is going to be hard to find.

I don’t even know if they exist, but I figured ask if anyone had them.

[F-2]

On 7/21/2022 at 12:51 AM, PLAAF said:

It was not unusual. Original J-10 prototype was almost completely different plane compare to the production variant J-10A.

It went through an intensive redesign process.

Notice there was no connective bars between the radar con and the air intake, the intake is also rounded instead of square shaped like the J-10A. That was because the development for the indigenous radar had fallen behind so they had to use a Russia radar as a stopping-gap. But the Russian radar had different weight and dimension, so they had to add the bars to support it.

the second thing is its engine. Development  of WS-10 was also fallen behind and the WP-15 wasn't entirely desirable. So once again they had to use Russian engine. But the Russian engine was significantly longer and heavier, and they had different fuel path way and cables. Because of this, the entire plane had to be redesigned. The old fly-by-wire was also threw out since the weight distribution was changed.

I may need to write another thread in the future about the development of J-10, if I have enough free time.

Hey what radar was the 1991 version gunna use and what version did the A use. I had a buisness idea today.

[F-2]

https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-08-17/detail-ihhvciiw3477372.d.html?from=wap
 

The metal mock up with a J-10s model behind it. Does it still exist? Where is it?