Aerodynamic brake

[Scandfox]

With latest update You can in landing use aerodynamic brake down to 80 kts, Nice but not normal when land a Fighter

[Kercheiz]

Do you have a source for this?

Actual M-2000C use aerobraking down to 100kts, at which point the procedure dictates to land the nose wheel for using wheel brakes. But pilots do land the nose wheel intentionally at that point, not because it doesn't hold anymore.

Then regarding "not normal when land a Fighter", the M-2000C has the perfect configuration to hold aerobraking : the wing surface is huge and ends up very close to the runway on the rear, leading to a huge ground effect, air being trapped between the wing and the runway. Not something that happens on fighters with tails.

Unless you have specific sources about the topic, the 80kts behavior is far from impossible.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Kercheiz

[Scandfox]

Make a testflight with the latest update so You will understand my topic

Edited July 23, 2022 by Scandfox

[Kercheiz]

I know the module behavior well!

My point being : yes, it has changed a lot compared to previous version, but it could be in the right way.

 

[Scandfox]

53 kts in Aerodynamic Braking in last flight is definitely the wrong way in this pitch update.  I have 12 YRS flying in Airforce so its not a guessing

[Kercheiz]

The mirage center of mass is very close to its main landing gear. It can topple on its back if you refill the wing tank compartments on the wrong order. Couple this to an extreme ground effect when at its aerobraking pitch since the trailing edge is very close to the ground. And you can end up with a really different result from another aircraft.

Now the landing procedure is clear : at 100kts you must land your nose gear and stop aerobraking. What you tried to do is forbidden. Stick to the procedure

[Scandfox]

Try to understand my post and try to remember the situation before this latest update and pls make a test flight if you can fly an airplane

My post is not about SOP its about CG

The problem when you write a post in this Forum is that You will be stuck in endless discussions with people who not fully get the message iso accepting the main core in the post

Edited July 24, 2022 by Scandfox

[Kercheiz]

I know the situation before this latest update, I'm the developper.

I can't fly a Mirage 2000 myself, but I'm in contact with pilots. I asked them, it's forbidden to hold aerobraking below 100kts.

Why ? Because in some weight configurations the plane can topple back, even at 0kts. Yes, you can make a mirage standing still in equilibrium on its main gear in some fuel/loadout configurations (yes, I asked to mechanics, this is something important in some procedures). At this point, you need zero aerodynamic force to make it keep an angle.

So if you hold aerobraking at too low speed, you can reach a point where you don't have enough elevon authority to pitch him down, topple back, and damage the aircraft.

So actual mirage 2000 pilots have absolutely no idea of the minimum speed the aircraft can hold aerobraking. It's forbidden to try, they don't play with it.

The FM is in a WIP state and has already evolved a lot since the latest update. I will check this carefully, it may be already fixed to your state as a side effect to changing other variables. But no, any change at the latest update is not necessarily wrong.

What mainly changed here, is the ground elevon FBW law, we learned that with weight on wheels you get direct the full deflection range which wasn't the case before.

And again, you can't say "I flew fighter aircraft, this isn't true". That kind of specific point is so much aircraft specific, you can't take a value from one and apply to another one. An aircraft that will topple back if you tilt it by more than 15-20° on the parking has theoritically, no minimum aerobraking speed.

As a conclusion:
- Don't tilt the aircraft at more than the inverted T cue in both take of and landing
- Don't try to roll or aerobrake at less than 100kts.
- Wait incoming updates, but the behavior won't change back to its exact state before last update.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Kercheiz

[Scandfox]

Thanks for the fix. I have flown SH/SF 37 in Swedish Airforce and we fly AJS37 in our group NOSIG but Your M2000C is in my opinion the best plane in DCS with the TAF in air combat and a lot of AG weapons and around the clock ability

I use DCS Stable and DCS Open beta and the "old" M2000 in DCS Stable differs from this "new" update in DCS open beta so much in handling that I had to write a post about it.

Looking Forward next update 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Scandfox

[Fox One]

@ Scandfox

Here is a video of an F-16C landing and aerobraking down to about 75kts

 

I would be surprised if the real Mirage 2000 can't hold the nose up even to a lower speed...

[Kercheiz]

2 hours ago, Scandfox said:

Thanks for the fix. I have flown SH/SF 37 in Swedish Airforce and we fly AJS37 in our group NOSIG but Your M2000C is in my opinion the best plane in DCS with the TAF in air combat and a lot of AG weapons and around the clock ability

I use DCS Stable and DCS Open beta and the "old" M2000 in DCS Stable differs from this "new" update in DCS open beta so much in handling that I had to write a post about it.

Looking Forward next update 

 

Nice!

Maybe the CG is more forward relative to the main landing gear on the viggen, and it is likely lower too. Also the Mirage 2000 has a pretty strong wing Cm moment coefficient linked to relaxed stability, a very strong ground effect from the flat, streamlined belly. It is known that it is prone to fall on its tail upon landing in some conditions.

Last update, we had to do a quick fix to the FM as people complained about the increased turn rate from engine overhaul. We also updated the FBW laws from pilot feedback and this is what you feel the most in handling changes and aerobrake  : with elevons allowed to max deflection on the ground, you have more control. And we noted a few things to improve when it comes to wing properties and performance, this is being adjusted carefully and will be part of a future update.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Kercheiz

[Sealpup]

On 7/24/2022 at 5:49 AM, Fox One said:

@ Scandfox

Here is a video of an F-16C landing and aerobraking down to about 75kts

 

I would be surprised if the real Mirage 2000 can't hold the nose up even to a lower speed...

Oh, you certainly can! Its just that, when you've come to a stop, you'll find the nose is STILL up in the air with the ground down remains of your turkey-feathers scattered in a trail along the runway behind you.

[Scandfox]

After last update Pitch Channel OK.