What are good SD-10, and LD-10 launch parameters.

[Vashka]

Of course it depends...

I don't have a frame of reference as to what to expect out of these. I've been throwing them both at 30k, 350kn, at about 5-10* (higher for the LD). So I guess the main questions are:

• Is there a correct loft angle? What is it? ( I feel like physics would indicate 45* but that's a lot). The ld-10 for sure seems to like a high angle. I fired 2 with about 10 seconds between, and the second impacted first. the main difference being the angle I lofted them. Speed and alt were about the same.
• What's an ideal altitude? Obviously high, but you don't want to be struggling speed wise to attain it I imagine.
• The plane wants the dot on the steering circle. Is it better to listen to that, or just loft above the dot?
• What range can you expect them to be reliable? The SD seems good out to about 18nm, but I don't think I'm understanding the symbology. Sometimes the max range and MAR are almost right on top of each other, and other times it feel like I'll never reach the MAR. It's hard to determine when exactly the missile would be best served.

Honestly any knowledge people want to dump here is appreciated.

[Napillo]

43 minutes ago, Vashka said:

What's an ideal altitude?

JF-17 cruise altitude is between 24k and 26k ft so somewhere in there is good, but if I'm going to SEAD, I fly at 30-40k personally.

43 minutes ago, Vashka said:

What range can you expect them to be reliable?

lol - the SD-10 is reliable at any range, just have to hold the lock until it goes pitbull. You can fire before the "max" if you loft (pitch up at least 9 degrees) I've gotten a kill at 45nm before. Basically, you want to get the most speed (preferably mach 1.2 or above), and the way I do that is by taking only 1 SD-10 on each wing, and the 800l center tank to get up to altitude then drop the tank, and get up to speed.  Set your weapon to "small" target if you want to try and get that kind of long range kill. If you're chasing someone, yea maybe 5nm or so you could possibly get a hit with it. Also, if you're in a dogfight and on someone's tail, the PL5E is good, but the SD-10 is better. It'll surprise you how good it is in a dogfight.

LD-10, forget about it, not reliable, lucky to hit. Try within about 15nm or so. 10 if you can get that close.

43 minutes ago, Vashka said:

Is there a correct loft angle?

Anything 9 degrees or above is a loft angle - choose what works best for you. It'll auto-loft on active mode.

 

43 minutes ago, Vashka said:

The plane wants the dot on the steering circle.

It depends, if they're far away, loft at 9 degrees, if they're within NEZ, then don't loft it. I loft the SD-10 most of the time, because it comes from high up, it can sometimes get into the RWR blind spot. I won't loft it if the enemy is 10k or lower than me.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Napillo

[Dr_Pavelheer]

SD-10 is basically AIM-120X

[AeriaGloria]

I’m pretty sure the loft is automatic, you just have to be nose up a few degrees and it will loft optimally on its own. Above Mach 1 and 30,000 feet will get you 35-45nm shots easy. And I’m pretty sure the loft automatically turns off no matter what when in within 20 nm. 

[Napillo]

2 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Above Mach 1 and 30,000 feet will get you 35-45nm shots easy.

are you talking about the LD-10? And have you tried it recently?

[AeriaGloria]

30 minutes ago, Napillo said:

are you talking about the LD-10? And have you tried it recently?

SD-10. I have not tried LD-10 recently, but I did try it about a month and a half ago and saw some weird things. But it got some changes during the latest patch, so I wonder if it’s better. 
 

When it does work right, best LD-10 performance would be in ACT mode which is the only mode where it can loft, and supposedly should have 32 nm if we go by the max range listed in the LUAs. I think I saw another source quoting the manufacturer as 80 km/40 km max but I would have to check again. I know that currently it has 10-15% worse drag then SD-10 and Deka can’t figure it out, but I would be happy if the recent patch made it more reliable in all modes. 
 

Also seems like it has much more battery life then SD-10 now, so as long as the guidance works it should be able to pull some good long shots now 

[Napillo]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

I saw another source quoting the manufacturer as 80 km

Yes, I saw that also, it did say 80 and not 40. However, I'm assuming Deka has some SME that says its closer to 40 than anything, because it's a lot worse than it ever was.

[Vashka]

On 7/25/2022 at 3:21 PM, Napillo said:

JF-17 cruise altitude is between 24k and 26k ft so somewhere in there is good, but if I'm going to SEAD, I fly at 30-40k personally.

lol - the SD-10 is reliable at any range, just have to hold the lock until it goes pitbull. You can fire before the "max" if you loft (pitch up at least 9 degrees) I've gotten a kill at 45nm before. Basically, you want to get the most speed (preferably mach 1.2 or above), and the way I do that is by taking only 1 SD-10 on each wing, and the 800l center tank to get up to altitude then drop the tank, and get up to speed.  Set your weapon to "small" target if you want to try and get that kind of long range kill. If you're chasing someone, yea maybe 5nm or so you could possibly get a hit with it. Also, if you're in a dogfight and on someone's tail, the PL5E is good, but the SD-10 is better. It'll surprise you how good it is in a dogfight.

LD-10, forget about it, not reliable, lucky to hit. Try within about 15nm or so. 10 if you can get that close.

Anything 9 degrees or above is a loft angle - choose what works best for you. It'll auto-loft on active mode.

 

It depends, if they're far away, loft at 9 degrees, if they're within NEZ, then don't loft it. I loft the SD-10 most of the time, because it comes from high up, it can sometimes get into the RWR blind spot. I won't loft it if the enemy is 10k or lower than me.

 

How does one set target to small? what is your kill % at 40nm? holding only 2 SD-10s seems counter intuitive. I'd almost rather forgo the PL5 in order to hold the double racks for the SD-10. I've always taken the jammer for AA, but i suppose if your launch is at 25+ and youre just assuming you beat their missile anyway...

[Dr_Pavelheer]

You set target size in SMS when you have SD-10 selected. When you have only two missiles you have less drag, which means you can go faster and give your missiles better chance of hitting their target, especially since JF-17 struggles to go supersonic with any significant loadout.

[Napillo]

55 minutes ago, Vashka said:

How does one set target to small?

on the stores page

55 minutes ago, Vashka said:

what is your kill % at 40nm?

pretty low, maybe 10-5% - you have to choose your shots carefully, but if they're at 40k and you're at 30k, you can take that shot.

56 minutes ago, Vashka said:

holding only 2 SD-10s seems counter intuitive. I'd almost rather forgo the PL5 in order to hold the double racks for the SD-10.

The PL5 weigh less than the SD-10, but if you look at photos of JF-17s, you'll see they rarely if ever take the double rack SD-10. Their military probably says "if they come with 3 planes, we come with 6 planes" or something like that. Either way, try it out - you'll be a straight up killer in the sky. The double rack you're going to push people away by firing first and making them defensive, it's a different play style for sure, but if you want to mix it up, try single rack only.

[Tiger-II]

LD-10 is a pretty easy weapon to use once you understand the modes.

Lofting it, even if it doesn't appear to be beneficial (same for SD-10) helps the missile avoid that initial turn under its own power. It is converting all its energy to turn rate rather than accelerating, so aiding it allows the missile to use a few seconds extra burn to gain speed instead (and speed = range). I always loft them.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Tiger-II

[J20Stronk]

10 hours ago, Tiger-II said:

LD-10 is a pretty easy weapon to use once you understand the modes.

Lofting it, even if it doesn't appear to be beneficial (same for SD-10) helps the missile avoid that initial turn under its own power. It is converting all its energy to turn rate rather than accelerating, so aiding it allows the missile to use a few seconds extra burn to gain speed instead (and speed = range). I always loft them.

 

This. ALWAYS manually loft your missiles!

I have managed to hit SAMs at about 35nm-40nm by flying above 37kft ASL, ~M1.0 and pitching up 10°-15°, that way the missile has the most amount of energy as it flies.

[Vashka]

On 8/4/2022 at 4:16 AM, J20Stronk said:

This. ALWAYS manually loft your missiles!

I have managed to hit SAMs at about 35nm-40nm by flying above 37kft ASL, ~M1.0 and pitching up 10°-15°, that way the missile has the most amount of energy as it flies.

It's not a question to loft, its a question of how much of a loft.

[cmbaviator]

i've been flying on 4YA for almost a month now on PvP, and even if the skill level of those fighter are average ( i consider myself bad as i've started DCS 1 months ago), it's almost impossible to get a kill above 20Nm even at 30 000 ft as the other players will defend. You might get  35+Nm shots against poor IA ?

 

I can confirm that the SD-10 are beast in dogfight, never missed so far when i'm in No Escapoe Zone

Off topic but i just got my luckiest PL5 II kill in PvP at 10Nm.....

nullI guess he didn't see me shooting the PL-5 and as it was a Fox 2 and the F16 b50 doesn't have a Missile warning system for Fox 2.

nullnull

[Mike_Romeo]

14 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

i've been flying on 4YA for almost a month now on PvP, and even if the skill level of those fighter are average ( i consider myself bad as i've started DCS 1 months ago), it's almost impossible to get a kill above 20Nm even at 30 000 ft as the other players will defend. You might get  35+Nm shots against poor IA ?

Set target size to small on the SMS page. That will reduce the activation distance of the missile seeker and so the enemy will have a much shorter warning time before the missile impacts. Keep in mind that you need to support the missile with your own radar a little bit longer.

[cmbaviator]

10 minutes ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Set target size to small on the SMS page. That will reduce the activation distance of the missile seeker and so the enemy will have a much shorter warning time before the missile impacts. Keep in mind that you need to support the missile with your own radar a little bit longer.

 

Thanks, didn't know that.

 

Let's say you have to evade a missile before the SD-10 goes pitbull:

 

1) Will the missile be lost 

or

 

2) will it switch automatically to pitbull mode and try to re acquire the target ?

[Mike_Romeo]

17 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

1) Will the missile be lost 

or

 

2) will it switch automatically to pitbull mode and try to re acquire the target ?

It will go automatic pitbull but depending on the range, it could get lost.

Small thing to add, I also recommend to raise the nose up between 20-40° before you fire your SD-10. This way, the missile will fly higher up in thiner air where the air resistance is quite low and so it flies further away. Also you dont have to wait for beeing in range. The displayed max range is not accurate and the missiles sometimes hit beyond that range.

[Napillo]

1 hour ago, Mike_Romeo said:

The displayed max range is not accurate

It is at about 80% max range when the enemy is at the 'max range' mark, but with lofting you extend the range quite a bit. If they're at max range and I have to defend or get shot in the face, I'll loft the missile instead of waiting until I'm closer. 

[Dragon1-1]

The DLZ should probably reflect your attitude, in fact, the real F-16 has loft symbology on the DLZ and HUD cues to help fly the maneuver. I suspect the Hornet does, too, but I don't know how they look like. JF-17, no idea, but it seems like it should be a thing.

[Napillo]

22 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The DLZ should probably reflect your attitude,

I have no idea about the software updates in the actual JF-17, but I'm sure it's probably acting very similarly to the simulator, which may lag the actual.

It would be nice if the JF-17 supported this: 

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2715206/f-16-receives-in-flight-software-update-during-recent-flight-test/

I imagine some servers could use this to simulate loading locations of SAM sites, changing the WEZ/NEZ for a specific aircraft, or targeting updates coming from AH-64D to a F/A-18 or F-16. I know you can share waypoints with those, but if an apache could send you their whole radar picture for integration into your sensors, well that changes the whole ballgame.

[cmbaviator]

On 8/28/2022 at 12:46 AM, Mike_Romeo said:

It will go automatic pitbull but depending on the range, it could get lost.

Small thing to add, I also recommend to raise the nose up between 20-40° before you fire your SD-10. This way, the missile will fly higher up in thiner air where the air resistance is quite low and so it flies further away. Also you dont have to wait for beeing in range. The displayed max range is not accurate and the missiles sometimes hit beyond that range.

 

 

thanks, thats good to know, however you will have to maintain lock longuer i presume before it goes pitbull as it'll have to travel further ?

I tried to set the target size to low this WE as i was told that it will go pitbull at the last moment so the foe will have less time to defeat the missile but maybe it was a coincidence but i felt like i got less hit on targets.

 

What the difference between small, Medium and large anyway ?

[Dragon1-1]

12 hours ago, Napillo said:

I have no idea about the software updates in the actual JF-17, but I'm sure it's probably acting very similarly to the simulator, which may lag the actual.

In real Western aircraft, the DLZ takes into account the attitude. So, if you pitch up or pitch down, it will take into account how much range you lose or gain due to helping or hindering the loft maneuver. This has nothing to do with real-time software updates, just with the fact our DLZs aren't implemented properly.

[AeriaGloria]

4 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

 

 

thanks, thats good to know, however you will have to maintain lock longuer i presume before it goes pitbull as it'll have to travel further ?

I tried to set the target size to low this WE as i was told that it will go pitbull at the last moment so the foe will have less time to defeat the missile but maybe it was a coincidence but i felt like i got less hit on targets.

 

What the difference between small, Medium and large anyway ?

Pitbull at 8, 15, or 18 km 

[cmbaviator]

26 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

Pitbull at 8, 15, or 18 km 

is that written in the chuck's guide ?

[cmbaviator]

regarding the Max range cue for the SD_10, some says its underestimated especially of you loft it. Do you guys know how much more Km we can launch from the cue ?

 

for example, the max range is at 25Km, can we launch it at 30km when lofting for example ?