Discussion about adding weapons for the JF-17

[BuxtonHouse]

I haven't seen it posted here so ill give it a try.

I have seen sources state that the Block 1 has been able to use more variety of weapons than it currently has. For example: 

- MAR 1 Anti Radiation Missile

- H-4 JSOW Which I think is a derivative of the South African MUPSOW (Which was put in SAAF Mirage F-1s and bought by Pakistan for their Mirages (See H-4 JSOW info))
-  Hatf-VIII (Ra'ad) Air Launched Cruise Missile 

- AIM-9L/M and PL-9C and MAA-1 Piranha (As far as it understand that it CAN carry these weapons, and understand that Deka is basing their module off of what ever Pakistani Air Force decides to do with theirs)

- CM-400AKG - Air To Ground Missile (Info on CM-400 in the link below)

- LT-3 EO guided Bomb 

 

Random Question - Can the WMD-7 Lock on the Ground more than 20nm than it does in game? Its abit limiting.

 

This is just a discussing, if there are laws in my School Presentation post, please dont rip me a new one, i just like the Jeff.

 

H-4 JSOW info - "Three successful tests were conducted, the last one in 2003, which led to field deployment on the Dassault Mirage III and Mirage V strike fighters of the Pakistan Air Force. It has also been stated that the H-4 will be integrated with the PAF's new multi-role combat aircraft, the JF-17, which is replacing the ageing fleet of Mirage III and Dassault Mirage 5 aircraft. All Pakistani JF-17 fighters, from the initial JF-17 Block 1 model to the final Block 3 version, will be capable of launching the H-4." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-4_SOW

Hatf-VIII (Ra'ad) info. The missile's latest version has a range of 600 km. The missile uses stealth technology, has a range of 350 km and is designed to carry conventional or nuclear warheads. As per media reports, the missile has features including low-altitude, terrain hugging missile with high manoeuvrability. The missile would probably be tasked for precision attacks on high value targets including command centres, radars, surface-to-air missile launchers, ballistic missile launchers and stationary warships. (I revised this text) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatf-VIII_(Ra'ad)

My Sources:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunders-armament.297771/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/specifications-of-jf-17.297636/

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder#Specifications_(JF-17_Block_1) (Which I understand is not PAF Related but general)

https://twitter.com/AhmAdTipu7/status/966314496645091330 (This is PAF JF-17 Firing a CM-400)

https://www.airrecognition.com/index.php/198-november-2013-news-aviation-air-force-industry/924-cm-400akg-a-new-export-variant-of-an-anti-ship-missile-from-china-russian-media.html (Info on CM-400)

 

 

[Th3ChosenOn3]

Would love for these weapons to be added as well, if there's sufficient data to add them.

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, BuxtonHouse said:

I haven't seen it posted here so ill give it a try.

I have seen sources state that the Block 1 has been able to use more variety of weapons than it currently has. For example: 

- MAR 1 Anti Radiation Missile

- H-4 JSOW Which I think is a derivative of the South African MUPSOW (Which was put in SAAF Mirage F-1s and bought by Pakistan for their Mirages (See H-4 JSOW info))
-  Hatf-VIII (Ra'ad) Air Launched Cruise Missile 

- AIM-9L/M and PL-9C and MAA-1 Piranha (As far as it understand that it CAN carry these weapons, and understand that Deka is basing their module off of what ever Pakistani Air Force decides to do with theirs)

- CM-400AKG - Air To Ground Missile (Info on CM-400 in the link below)

- LT-3 EO guided Bomb 

 

Random Question - Can the WMD-7 Lock on the Ground more than 20nm than it does in game? Its abit limiting.

 

This is just a discussing, if there are laws in my School Presentation post, please dont rip me a new one, i just like the Jeff.

 

H-4 JSOW info - "Three successful tests were conducted, the last one in 2003, which led to field deployment on the Dassault Mirage III and Mirage V strike fighters of the Pakistan Air Force. It has also been stated that the H-4 will be integrated with the PAF's new multi-role combat aircraft, the JF-17, which is replacing the ageing fleet of Mirage III and Dassault Mirage 5 aircraft. All Pakistani JF-17 fighters, from the initial JF-17 Block 1 model to the final Block 3 version, will be capable of launching the H-4." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-4_SOW

Hatf-VIII (Ra'ad) info. The missile's latest version has a range of 600 km. The missile uses stealth technology, has a range of 350 km and is designed to carry conventional or nuclear warheads. As per media reports, the missile has features including low-altitude, terrain hugging missile with high manoeuvrability. The missile would probably be tasked for precision attacks on high value targets including command centres, radars, surface-to-air missile launchers, ballistic missile launchers and stationary warships. (I revised this text) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatf-VIII_(Ra'ad)

My Sources:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunders-armament.297771/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/specifications-of-jf-17.297636/

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder#Specifications_(JF-17_Block_1) (Which I understand is not PAF Related but general)

https://twitter.com/AhmAdTipu7/status/966314496645091330 (This is PAF JF-17 Firing a CM-400)

https://www.airrecognition.com/index.php/198-november-2013-news-aviation-air-force-industry/924-cm-400akg-a-new-export-variant-of-an-anti-ship-missile-from-china-russian-media.html (Info on CM-400)

 

 

MAR-1: never built. They made one mock up but it was canceled becuase it required anti radiation seeker that US was not willing to export 

H-4: is a Pakistan owned weapon, Deka does not have info to make this becuase all their sources are Chinese

Ra’ad: this has less evidence supporting its use on JF-17 then anything else. It’s far too big of a bomb with its very wide H shaped tail, it couldn’t fit on JF-17 underbelly where it fits on Mirage 3/5. This means it will not work in JF-17 until new version of Ra’ad comes out! I’m sure this will happen becuase JF-17 is Mirage replacement, but there is no official indication of Ra’ad use at all and the reason you hear about it and JF-17 so much is………

You have to understand that the online fighting between India and Pakistan fans is insane. So people will do lots and lots to make their side seem better or have the best weapons, so you have all these fancy pictures like you posted that claim capabilities there is no evidence of whatsoever. You think this would happen to everyone equally but it doesn’t, Pakistan and India is kindve unique here. So of course Pakistan fans will love telling everyone with graphics about their countries fighter jet with nukes. And it may very well have a JF-17 block 4/5 with Ra’ad III someday. But anything else is completely made up, and one of the best arguments for Ra’ad on JF-17 boils down to “PAF would be dumb not too” or “it’s secret program.” 

AIM-9/AAM-1/PL-9: absolutely no evidence for this ever being carried. There is no photo or any operator that claims it. It was claimed as a possible capability early in JF-17 development.

. And then you have the Pakistan/India online fight that makes Pakistan fans pounce on  15-20 year old rumors of using all kinds of weapons if someone paid Chengdu enough, at a time when Chengdu was doing everything it could to attract customers. Many of these graphics you posted or see elsewhere were made 10-15 years ago when JF-17 was brand new, and there seemed a lot of possibilities. But after years of service do we have the info that, yes apparently no one has any interest using anything other then PL-5 as heat seeker for block 1/2. Maybe AIM-9 couldn’t be integrated, perhaps it was too much strain decreasing AIM-9 stock needed for F-16 fleet, perhaps PL-9 was too heavy for wingtip, perhaps no one wanted Chengdu to fix these problems or negotiate with other countries didn’t go well, maybe simplicity is underrated, whatever the reason we know by know that even export customers are only using PL-5 as fox 2 on block 1/2. 
 

CM-400: Deka has posted before and looked into it. Many months later they came back and said there is not enough info available, which is very understandable 

LT-3: This is actually a laser guided bomb.Deka is already adding LS-6 250 kg. Perhaps it is possible I do not know. I have also never heard of anyone claiming JF-17 to carry it, where did you hear that JF-17 block one can carry it? 
 

LT-2: this is a laser guided bomb also, and some sources claim it can carry it, but I haven’t seen anything official. Do you have any official sources or photos? 

Sorry to say so much but please understand that India/Pakistan military info online is basically a propaganda war. Finding good info is deceptively hard. What has been happening in online weapon propaganda between Ukraine/Russia or Armenia/Azerbaijan since 2019, has been happening between India/Pakistan for over a decade constantly. I don’t know if Tejas/JF-17 started it, 1999 Nuclear escalation  or what. But it’s been very twisted for a log time, and has even affected DCS consumers and content to a certain degree 

There is another thread debating WMD-7 on front page… just look at main jf-17 forum and it’s there 

Edited September 1, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[BuxtonHouse]

4 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

MAR-1: never built. They made one mock up but it was canceled becuase it required anti radiation seeker that US was not willing to export 

H-4: is a Pakistan owned weapon, Deka does not have info to make this becuase all their sources are Chinese

Ra’ad: this has less evidence supporting its use on JF-17 then anything else. It’s far too big of a bomb with its very wide H shaped tail, it couldn’t fit on JF-17 underbelly where it fits on Mirage 3/5. This means it will not work in JF-17 until new version of Ra’ad comes out! I’m sure this will happen becuase JF-17 is Mirage replacement, but there is no official indication of Ra’ad use at all and the reason you hear about it and JF-17 so much is………

You have to understand that the online fighting between India and Pakistan fans is insane. So people will do lots and lots to make their side seem better or have the best weapons, so you have all these fancy pictures like you posted that claim capabilities there is no evidence of whatsoever. You think this would happen to everyone equally but it doesn’t, Pakistan and India is kindve unique here. So of course Pakistan fans will love telling everyone with graphics about their countries fighter jet with nukes. And it may very well have a JF-17 block 4/5 with Ra’ad III someday. But anything else is completely made up, and one of the best arguments for Ra’ad on JF-17 boils down to “PAF would be dumb not too” or “it’s secret program.” 

AIM-9/AAM-1/PL-9: absolutely no evidence for this ever being carried. There is no photo or any operator that claims it. It was claimed as a possible capability early in JF-17 development.

. And then you have the Pakistan/India online fight that makes Pakistan fans pounce on  15-20 year old rumors of using all kinds of weapons if someone paid Chengdu enough, at a time when Chengdu was doing everything it could to attract customers. Many of these graphics you posted or see elsewhere were made 10-15 years ago when JF-17 was brand new, and there seemed a lot of possibilities. But after years of service do we have the info that, yes apparently no one has any interest using anything other then PL-5 as heat seeker for block 1/2. Maybe AIM-9 couldn’t be integrated, perhaps it was too much strain decreasing AIM-9 stock needed for F-16 fleet, perhaps PL-9 was too heavy for wingtip, perhaps no one wanted Chengdu to fix these problems or negotiate with other countries didn’t go well, maybe simplicity is underrated, whatever the reason we know by know that even export customers are only using PL-5 as fox 2 on block 1/2. 
 

CM-400: Deka has posted before and looked into it. Many months later they came back and said there is not enough info available, which is very understandable 

LT-3: This is actually a laser guided bomb.Deka is already adding LS-6 250 kg. Perhaps it is possible I do not know. I have also never heard of anyone claiming JF-17 to carry it, where did you hear that JF-17 block one can carry it? 
 

LT-2: this is a laser guided bomb also, and some sources claim it can carry it, but I haven’t seen anything official. Do you have any official sources or photos? 

Sorry to say so much but please understand that India/Pakistan military info online is basically a propaganda war. Finding good info is deceptively hard. What has been happening in online weapon propaganda between Ukraine/Russia or Armenia/Azerbaijan since 2019, has been happening between India/Pakistan for over a decade constantly. I don’t know if Tejas/JF-17 started it, 1999 Nuclear escalation  or what. But it’s been very twisted for a log time, and has even affected DCS consumers and content to a certain degree 

There is another thread debating WMD-7 on front page… just look at main jf-17 forum and it’s there 

 

Okay yeah nah fair one. I do have more photos but they were from the first 2 links i posted but I didn't want to spam. 

Im sure the JF could carry the RAAD since it was Stated on on a few of the pictures but aside from that i hear you

I see i was ment to say H-4 was EO, good spot 

Now that you mention it, i have never seen any evidence of the JF using GB-6 but im sure there is

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, BuxtonHouse said:

Okay yeah nah fair one. I do have more photos but they were from the first 2 links i posted but I didn't want to spam. 

Im sure the JF could carry the RAAD since it was Stated on on a few of the pictures but aside from that i hear you

I see i was ment to say H-4 was EO, good spot 

Now that you mention it, i have never seen any evidence of the JF using GB-6 but im sure there is

The difference is that there is official Chinese material stating it can be used with GB-6. You don’t see pictures with it becuase Pakistan didn’t buy any GB-6. While the pictures that claim JF-17 used Ra’ad are not official and cannot be trusted, and are nothing more then wishes and fantasies. 
 

Being stated on a picture isn’t evidence, being stated on a press release/airshow/display  about what a weapon system can do from the manufacturer is definitely evidence 

Take the dimensions and add them together and it just doesn’t work 

As for GB-6, it’s been mentioned in Chinese statements to be a weapon JF-17can carry, and displayed at Zuhai airshow and other displays with JF-17 and GB-6 sitting with JF-17 weapons. You also see things that JF-17 can carry there that aren’t in DCS such as CM-102, but I assume there is not enough info on it to model for Deka, especially when LD-10 fills a shorter range version of its job http://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2014/11/jf-17-thunder-to-armed-with-cm-102-anti.html?m=0

In Chinese press release of GB-6, saying it’s for JF-17, this is from 2020 and straight from Chinese CCTV https://n.eastday.com/mnews/1597564174023760

Edited September 1, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Napillo]

how about the Takbir? It was test fired in 2019 from a JF-17 similar to LS-6 but smarter.

[Iron Sights]

I think the reason the targeting can’t lock past a certain range is a DCS limitation. I think all pods have some limitations in game.

[Napillo]

2 hours ago, Iron Sights said:

targeting can’t lock past a certain range is a DCS limitation.

there's actually equations you can use to determine the max range a specific target is identifiable / trackable, the 21nm seems to fit, unless there is a 4k sensor in the tpod (there is not) - most likely the targeting pod of the f/a-18 and 16 are not as good in real life as they are in the game.

[Mike_Romeo]

6 hours ago, Napillo said:

It was test fired in 2019

Thats is the issue. Its too new and likely very classified to model it correctly into dcs

[Napillo]

9 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Thats is the issue.

No, that's not the issue. It was test fired several times, 2019 shows the test fire from the JF-17. It has been test fired since 2007.

[Mike_Romeo]

34 minutes ago, Napillo said:

No, that's not the issue. It was test fired several times, 2019 shows the test fire from the JF-17. It has been test fired since 2007.

Alright, please show now Deka Ironworks all the blue prints of it, all the tecnical documentation of how it works and all the test results and performance charts so that they can realistcal remodel it for this sim. 

[AeriaGloria]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:47 PM, Napillo said:

how about the Takbir? It was test fired in 2019 from a JF-17 similar to LS-6 but smarter.

Can’t be added becuase it’s Pakistan weapon. You only see Chinese weapons on DCS JF-17 for one reason, all of Deka’s sources are Chinese. 
 

They have said if they ever get Pakistani sources willing to give info, they will make them. 

[Tiger-II]

DCS currently has a hard limit of 20 NM for targeting pods. Whether this will be increased in future is unknown.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Tiger-II

[Napillo]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:13 PM, Tiger-II said:

hard limit of 20 NM for targeting pods

I've seen people target things at 40nm away with a lightening pod.

[Tiger-II]

16 hours ago, Napillo said:

I've seen people target things at 40nm away with a lightening pod.

Actually target them? IIRC the problem was the units are not visible beyond 20 NM. They've perhaps increased the render range then since I last flew (6 months or more). I shall check it out!

Edited January 7, 2023 by Tiger-II

[Foogle]

6 hours ago, Tiger-II said:

Actually target them? IIRC the problem was the units are not visible beyond 20 NM. They've perhaps increased the render range then since I last flew (6 months or more). I shall check it out!

 

40nm is the draw limit of DCS, and with maxed out settings you can see units that far out. 

[MK84]

On 1/7/2023 at 11:25 AM, Napillo said:

I've seen people target things at 40nm away with a lightening pod.

That's with inertial (INR) track usually, something we don't have with the WMD700 at the moment.

[Schmidtfire]

The range of the WMD-7 is not great IRL. Just check the brochure. Target detection at around 20km (or 11nm) with identification at 15-17km (8-9nm).
Also worth noting is that Pakistan bought ASEL pods from Turkey instead of integrating the WMD-7. From what I know, only Nigeria has bought WMD-7 for their
JF-17's. Maybe Im wrong here, or maybe it's bad press..  But I wouldn't be surprised if our WMD-7 pod in DCS actually overperforms. Especially in terms of image
quality and stabilization. Im pretty sure we can identify targets beyond 8-9nm... but need to test that before drawing a conclusion.

[Napillo]

yea, the WMD7 specs are low, If it is 320x240 the specs would make sense. Aselsan pod is used on the real JF-17.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Napillo

[Napillo]

On 9/1/2022 at 1:35 AM, AeriaGloria said:

While the pictures that claim JF-17 used Ra’ad are not official and cannot be trusted,

I did a quick check, those images are not to scale. I don't have any reason not to believe that it can in fact mount the RA'AD. 

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Napillo said:

I did a quick check, those images are not to scale. I don't have any reason not to believe that it can in fact mount the RA'AD. 

Not to scale in which way? Any reason to believe it can mount Ra’ad? 

[Pede]

On 1/9/2023 at 3:43 PM, Schmidtfire said:

The range of the WMD-7 is not great IRL. Just check the brochure. Target detection at around 20km (or 11nm) with identification at 15-17km (8-9nm).
Also worth noting is that Pakistan bought ASEL pods from Turkey instead of integrating the WMD-7. From what I know, only Nigeria has bought WMD-7 for their
JF-17's. Maybe Im wrong here, or maybe it's bad press..  But I wouldn't be surprised if our WMD-7 pod in DCS actually overperforms. Especially in terms of image
quality and stabilization. Im pretty sure we can identify targets beyond 8-9nm... but need to test that before drawing a conclusion.

Alot of that is just DCS; Lightning pods can ID and track targets at 40nm in game, which obviously is not realistic. IRL ambient weather conditions combined with the fact that the ground in the real world isn't 720p means it's much much more difficult to find and ID targets than it is in game. If you had a tank painted green in a forest, you're not going to find it a regular TV camera from distances like we see in DCS. TLDR; all TPODs in DCS overperform, but that comes with being a simulator.