Any speculation about Pico 4

[Max Thunder]

Did order a P4 on Amazon. 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Video capture of the mirror of the headsets. You can see how medium my laptop is...

 

 

[RealDCSpilot]

I'm looking forward what the two NVENC encoders on RTX40XX can do for sliced encoding in Virtual Desktop...

@Max Thunder Sorry, i'm currently running a racing sim setup. Will check my settings when i'm back in flightsim mode.

[cerebrave]

2 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

I'm looking forward what the two NVENC encoders on RTX40XX can do for sliced encoding in Virtual Desktop...

@Max Thunder Sorry, i'm currently running a racing sim setup. Will check my settings when i'm back in flightsim mode.

@RealDCSpilot or anyone here..

Can you help me…. What I’m struggling to understand is how I can improve VD’s “FPS”, compared to oculus airlink.  Whether I use Pico4 or Quest2, My VD performance is almost identical between the 2 headsets.  But if I use Airlink (which is only in Quest2), I could yield another 10-15 sweet fps.  This also means Im using all the same settings in DCS.  VD can use both OpenVR or Oculus runtime, which I tried both, with Both Quest and Pico, and the result is the same.  I still wonder how I can achieve Airlink performance with VD or pico’s software, because Airlink is Meta compatible only.

I dont have any issue with latency… (yet).. my current issue is fps.  My hypothesis was, Airlink render lower resolution than VD.  But when I downsample VD to get to Airlink fps performance, I almost have to sacrifice everything.  Visually, Airlink is just much better, sharper and smoother, with more fps.  Or its is just how dcs is more optimized with Oculus?

p.s. i finally decided to give Pico a go.  Nailed it at $339… which I thought a good deal for me.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I listen to the VD developer, instead of getting a faster USB cable, get a USB-C to ethernet adapter and connect to the same router as my computer. I do not need WI-FI on Pico 4 and can still connect via VD. Not sure how much speed is gained, though.

[RealDCSpilot]

Yeah, the Pico4 supports USB ethernet adapters. This should give you the most stable connection and maybe even a bit better latency values.

@cerebrave You should share some more information where you are coming from, what FPS do you get, what hardware are you running on... etc.
However, resolution is factor #1 when it comes to performance, so you should check at what resolution you are truly running with different streaming methods.

[RealDCSpilot]

 

As requested, F-14 quick mission Caucasus "Take Off".

Graphics settings in my options.lua:
VR section:
["VR"] = {
        ["bloom"] = true,
        ["box_mouse_cursor"] = true,
        ["custom_IPD"] = "60",
        ["custom_IPD_enable"] = false,
        ["enable"] = true,
        ["enableHMDMask"] = true,
        ["hand_controllers"] = false,
        ["hand_controllers_debug_draw"] = false,
        ["hand_controllers_joint_throttle"] = false,
        ["hand_controllers_use_stick"] = true,
        ["hand_controllers_use_throttle"] = true,
        ["interaction_with_grip_only"] = false,
        ["mirror_crop"] = false,
        ["mirror_source"] = 1,
        ["mirror_use_DCS_resolution"] = true,
        ["msaaMaskSize"] = 0.33,
        ["pixel_density"] = 1,
        ["pointer_use_type"] = 0,
        ["prefer_built_in_audio"] = true,
        ["use_mouse"] = false,
    },
Graphics section:
["graphics"] = {
        ["DOF"] = 0,
        ["LensEffects"] = 2,
        ["MSAA"] = 0,
        ["SSAA"] = 0,
        ["SSAO"] = 0,
        ["SSLR"] = 0,
        ["ScreenshotExt"] = "jpg",
        ["anisotropy"] = 4,
        ["aspect"] = 1,
        ["box_mouse_cursor"] = true,
        ["chimneySmokeDensity"] = 10,
        ["civTraffic"] = "",
        ["clouds"] = 3,
        ["clutterMaxDistance"] = 0,
        ["cockpitGI"] = 0,
        ["defaultFOV"] = 69,
        ["effects"] = 3,
        ["flatTerrainShadows"] = 0,
        ["forestDetailsFactor"] = 1,
        ["forestDistanceFactor"] = 1,
        ["fullScreen"] = false,
        ["heatBlr"] = 1,
        ["height"] = 1200,
        ["lights"] = 2,
        ["messagesFontScale"] = 1,
        ["motionBlur"] = 0,
        ["multiMonitorSetup"] = "1camera",
        ["outputGamma"] = 2.2,
        ["preloadRadius"] = 150000,
        ["rainDroplets"] = true,
        ["scaleGui"] = 1,
        ["sceneryDetailsFactor"] = 1,
        ["secondaryShadows"] = 0,
        ["shadowTree"] = false,
        ["shadows"] = 4,
        ["sync"] = false,
        ["terrainTextures"] = "max",
        ["textures"] = 2,
        ["useDeferredShading"] = 1,
        ["visibRange"] = "High",
        ["water"] = 2,
        ["width"] = 1200,
    },

Besides that, the usual Nvidia driver stuff for less latency and max power and SteamVR resolution at 3010x3010 per eye.
 

Edited November 25, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[cerebrave]

On 11/20/2022 at 7:20 PM, cerebrave said:

Guys,

I’m from Q2 user here (driven by 3080 10G) and is in a crossroad whether I should purchase P4 or wait for Q3.  (Qpro is definetely a big NoNo - not because its price, but because the features I have to pay that I won’t use - facetracking, camera controllers, etc).

I’m using standalone DCS, and in Q2, the VD fps is always like 10-15fps worse than the native Quest Airlink (both wireless method).  This make me worry that in P4, as of today, the VD is the better solution for PCVR (given the compression artifacts exist in the native P4 pcvr).  Because if they do, it means I have to deal with lower fps if I adopt P4.
So, May I ask for VD user of P4, do you see a different fps performance between VD and the native method?.  I’m also wondering whether my worse VD fps in Q2 was due to the standalone DCS or anything else?  (My VD resulting like 42fps compared to 55fps in F16 training mission 5 - my testbed). 
 

thanks for any suggestions or shared views.

@RealDCSpilot @VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

here my previous post about the detail, the benchmark I use (f16 training mission 5) and the fps result.  To add, the above conditions werent mentioned are:

1. medium detail, high terrain texture, msaa 2x, shadow high, terrain object shadow, vr ss 1.3x, etc etc… I wonder if I needed to mention further over dcs settings, because the difference I got over my test above are using the same settings, same headset, the only difference is Airlink vs VD.

2. ram 48gb, i5 9600, rtx3080, again I dont think this is relevant because it is me vs me, Airlink vs VD.

3. quest link is at 1x resolution (in oculus app), while VD setting is at medium (3070).  I think this is worth mentioning

All I am asking, that if anyone here have ever compare airlink fps performance vs VD?  In quest 2.  If they got better fps in Airlink over VD, then I will accept the situation.

btw, I got 1200mbps over my router, and about 45-55ms delay, where game delay dominates about 20-30ms.  Network delay is always below 10ms, so I dont feel the need to use usb cables.  I dedicate the 5ghz band from my router to my headset.

 

The above post I made before I get Pico 4.  The idea here, to know if it is possible for me to tune up VD to get the same fps with Airlink (now I got 10-15fps lower).  And If I can do it with Quest, I will do it with Pico 4  But knowing whether it is possible or not, Is key.  To date, seems dcs is much friendlier toward Airlink.

thank you for any input given

 

Edit: I asked GuyGodin directly about this over Discord just now, he seems acknowledged the problem, and said this will get fixed in the next update. Hopefully we can squeeze more performance in VD.

Edited November 26, 2022 by cerebrave

[cerebrave]

On 11/25/2022 at 4:08 PM, RealDCSpilot said:

 

As requested, F-14 quick mission Caucasus "Take Off".

Graphics settings in my options.lua:
VR section:
["VR"] = {
        ["bloom"] = true,
        ["box_mouse_cursor"] = true,
        ["custom_IPD"] = "60",
        ["custom_IPD_enable"] = false,
        ["enable"] = true,
        ["enableHMDMask"] = true,
        ["hand_controllers"] = false,
        ["hand_controllers_debug_draw"] = false,
        ["hand_controllers_joint_throttle"] = false,
        ["hand_controllers_use_stick"] = true,
        ["hand_controllers_use_throttle"] = true,
        ["interaction_with_grip_only"] = false,
        ["mirror_crop"] = false,
        ["mirror_source"] = 1,
        ["mirror_use_DCS_resolution"] = true,
        ["msaaMaskSize"] = 0.33,
        ["pixel_density"] = 1,
        ["pointer_use_type"] = 0,
        ["prefer_built_in_audio"] = true,
        ["use_mouse"] = false,
    },
Graphics section:
["graphics"] = {
        ["DOF"] = 0,
        ["LensEffects"] = 2,
        ["MSAA"] = 0,
        ["SSAA"] = 0,
        ["SSAO"] = 0,
        ["SSLR"] = 0,
        ["ScreenshotExt"] = "jpg",
        ["anisotropy"] = 4,
        ["aspect"] = 1,
        ["box_mouse_cursor"] = true,
        ["chimneySmokeDensity"] = 10,
        ["civTraffic"] = "",
        ["clouds"] = 3,
        ["clutterMaxDistance"] = 0,
        ["cockpitGI"] = 0,
        ["defaultFOV"] = 69,
        ["effects"] = 3,
        ["flatTerrainShadows"] = 0,
        ["forestDetailsFactor"] = 1,
        ["forestDistanceFactor"] = 1,
        ["fullScreen"] = false,
        ["heatBlr"] = 1,
        ["height"] = 1200,
        ["lights"] = 2,
        ["messagesFontScale"] = 1,
        ["motionBlur"] = 0,
        ["multiMonitorSetup"] = "1camera",
        ["outputGamma"] = 2.2,
        ["preloadRadius"] = 150000,
        ["rainDroplets"] = true,
        ["scaleGui"] = 1,
        ["sceneryDetailsFactor"] = 1,
        ["secondaryShadows"] = 0,
        ["shadowTree"] = false,
        ["shadows"] = 4,
        ["sync"] = false,
        ["terrainTextures"] = "max",
        ["textures"] = 2,
        ["useDeferredShading"] = 1,
        ["visibRange"] = "High",
        ["water"] = 2,
        ["width"] = 1200,
    },

Besides that, the usual Nvidia driver stuff for less latency and max power and SteamVR resolution at 3010x3010 per eye.
 

 

Can you do this with F16 training mission 5?  For me It is an ideal test bed benchmark because the plane is static in the sky but the world is moving, a lot of objects appearing and flying, and can comparable to medium mission load… lastly, things are easier to compare between system as they are static.

[cerebrave]

I think now its time to share screenshots.... 

This is using identical setting, same headset, different Runtime. Oculus one runs better and I wonder why Steam's openVR always like this (I tried both Quest and Pico 4 in VD). On top of this, if I use Oculus Airlink (with Quest2)... the game will perform much better and smoother.  (screen shots in menu and in game (F16 Training Mission 5))

Edited November 27, 2022 by cerebrave

[RealDCSpilot]

@cerebrave I think i know now what's going on on your end. Still only speculation (i never used any Oculus Runtime on my system). You are using DCS's internal PD factor for Supersampling. This setting is a remnant from the very early days of VR in DCS, it's a SS value that goes directly into the Oculus Runtime but will work as an extra multiplicator if you are running OpenVR (SteamVR). This is the reason why it's always good to know what resolution you are truly running in the end of the VR compositor chain (the panels in your HMD). Please make another test with your OpenVR configuration, set PD in DCS to 1.0 and only modify the supersampling multiplicator in SteamVR for your own personal sweetspot between VR resolution and performance (DCS must be restarted everytime you change this).
Another problem could be Oculus runtime interfering with SteamVR runtime, because the game supports both. Make sure you are not tunneling DCS running on Oculus runtime through SteamVR. Don't know if you can disable Oculus temporarily on your system to make sure it's not running in the background...

Edited November 27, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[cerebrave]

@RealDCSpilotThanks for your comments.  The first one, this was also my speculation, thus the above screenshots were actually made with PD1.0.  SteamVR resolution has been set to "auto".  let me change back the auto setting to something neutral (like the 2160x2160 res PICO has). 

On your second speculation, I will try to shutdown Oculus.. by closing the app, and close those something called OVR service, OVRserver, etc right?. 

Any other tools or ways that one can do to switch over Oculus and OpenVR runtime?  The way I do it, to get Oculus runtine is to run DCS through the VD Streamer command.  And to get OpenVR runtime, I run DCS directly by clicking the DCS after starting SteamVR.  Again, on top of this, even though I'm running Oculus runtime (which is better than OpenVR on my case), the Airlink can perform much-much better, and can give me 10-15fps headroom to improve visual qualities.

for me "Airlink" > "VD-Oculus" > "VD-OpenVR".  Hence actually, my mission is to bring VD (of any runtime) at Airlink performance, not VD-OpenVR to VD-Oculus.  Because PICO4 is not possible to use Airlink, hence if I can bring Quest 2 VD to Airlink level, I think I shall be able to achieve that with PICO4.  That is the idea.

Edited November 27, 2022 by cerebrave

[tomcat_driver]

4 hours ago, cerebrave said:

@RealDCSpilotThanks for your comments.  The first one, this was also my speculation, thus the above screenshots were actually made with PD1.0.  SteamVR resolution has been set to "auto".  let me change back the auto setting to something neutral (like the 2160x2160 res PICO has). 

On your second speculation, I will try to shutdown Oculus.. by closing the app, and close those something called OVR service, OVRserver, etc right?. 

Any other tools or ways that one can do to switch over Oculus and OpenVR runtime?  The way I do it, to get Oculus runtine is to run DCS through the VD Streamer command.  And to get OpenVR runtime, I run DCS directly by clicking the DCS after starting SteamVR.  Again, on top of this, even though I'm running Oculus runtime (which is better than OpenVR on my case), the Airlink can perform much-much better, and can give me 10-15fps headroom to improve visual qualities.

for me "Airlink" > "VD-Oculus" > "VD-OpenVR".  Hence actually, my mission is to bring VD (of any runtime) at Airlink performance, not VD-OpenVR to VD-Oculus.  Because PICO4 is not possible to use Airlink, hence if I can bring Quest 2 VD to Airlink level, I think I shall be able to achieve that with PICO4.  That is the idea.

 

I think you can use OTT to force disable Oculus Services. Never tried so can't say for sure.

Edited November 27, 2022 by tomcat_driver

[RealDCSpilot]

7 hours ago, cerebrave said:

@RealDCSpilotThanks for your comments.  The first one, this was also my speculation, thus the above screenshots were actually made with PD1.0.  SteamVR resolution has been set to "auto".  let me change back the auto setting to something neutral (like the 2160x2160 res PICO has). 

On your second speculation, I will try to shutdown Oculus.. by closing the app, and close those something called OVR service, OVRserver, etc right?. 

Any other tools or ways that one can do to switch over Oculus and OpenVR runtime?  The way I do it, to get Oculus runtine is to run DCS through the VD Streamer command.  And to get OpenVR runtime, I run DCS directly by clicking the DCS after starting SteamVR.  Again, on top of this, even though I'm running Oculus runtime (which is better than OpenVR on my case), the Airlink can perform much-much better, and can give me 10-15fps headroom to improve visual qualities.

for me "Airlink" > "VD-Oculus" > "VD-OpenVR".  Hence actually, my mission is to bring VD (of any runtime) at Airlink performance, not VD-OpenVR to VD-Oculus.  Because PICO4 is not possible to use Airlink, hence if I can bring Quest 2 VD to Airlink level, I think I shall be able to achieve that with PICO4.  That is the idea.

 

If "auto" sets the res to 2160x2160 it's not what you want. The rendered resolution always needs to be higher than the panel res because of lens distortion correction. For the Pico you should manually choose something above 3000x3000 per eye or the image will be blurry. VD also automatically sets resolution according to the profiles "High", "Ultra" etc. But if you choose a VD quality preset and SteamVR resolution independently you have more control. Maybe VD sets the resolution in SteamVR to high for your machine? My PC hardware is very different from yours. I sadly can't give you any other recommendation. An i5 9600 and a 3080 in a CPU bound situation like DCS might not be the best combination in general for VR. 6 cores and 6 threads only, DCS already runs on 4 cores and the other 2 cores have to manage all the rest (Windows, streaming, VR compositors...). I only can say that Airlink shouldn't run much better than VD. Something is really strange there.

[Harke]

I have exactly the same thing, airlink or just oculus link give me so much more fps and smotheness than VD, I even tried VD + openXR since the pico is supposed to be openxr friendly but nothing better

[RealDCSpilot]

I can only guess that Oculus runs at a lower resolution, since the panel has a much lower resolution than the Pico4 panels (Quest2 has just one panel). 7 mio pixels against 9.3 mio pixels...

Edited November 27, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[Harke]

but then we should have close result when using same resolution as oculus, but that not the case

[cerebrave]

@HarkeSo we have the same problem... and I would like to share some development of my testing below, which might also help you figuring out.

@RealDCSpilotThanks for your comments, ideas and suggestions, I have done another series of testing and here are my findings below:

1. VD has internal resolution rendering, as below (taken from their official Discord bot message), and I think this is one of the key to my below findings

Virtual Desktop Setting - Graphic Quality : Render Resolution per eye
Quest
Potato: 1200x1344
Low: 1536x1728
Medium: 1824x2016
High: 2208x2400
Quest 2/Pico Neo 3/Quest Pro
Potato: 1440x1536
Low: 1728x1824
Medium: 2016x2112
High: 2496x2592
Ultra: 2688x2784
Godlike: 3072x3216 (Quest Pro Only)
Pico 4
Potato: 1488x1488
Low: 1776x1776
Medium: 2064x2064
High: 2544x2544
Ultra: 2736x2736
Godlike: 3120x3120

2. Auto resolution seems to lock steamVR to my previous super-sampling setting (around 1.5x).  So then it seems SteamVR was multipliying my VD rendering above, making my PC running too heavy hence slow fps.  Things didn't go this way if I use Oculus runtime.  Oculus runtime seems to be following VD's setting, including its sharpening level (btw VD's sharpening effect doesn't appear to be working with SteamVR/OpenVR runtime - but you can use reshade in OpenVR).

3. Airlink by default has lower res in Oculus app setting and that is the only resolution used by airlink.  If I use VD under Oculus runtime, it use VD's resolution which is higher than my airlink res (my VD is high 2496x2592 vs Airlink 1856x1872), hence Airlink performs better under this situation. 

4. Having said the above, I take an approximation of equivalent resolution within both VD setting and Airlink, and they now performs nearly the same.  So @RealDCSpilot, you are correct that resolution is the #1 factor to check.

5. I was remembering an incorrect fps count with Airlink.  The previous airlink test fps was with DCS2.7, and now we all see a slight worsening fps with 2.8.  (this is also additional factor)

6. Hence based on my limited testing above, below is my quick conclusion over resolutions used (happy to get any input) - and now it just seems obvious actually after I write it down.. lol...
Quest2 Airlink: Oculus App setting -> DCS PD multiplication
Quest2 VD Oculus runtime : VD setting -> DCS PD multiplication
Quest2 VD OpenVR runtime : VD setting -> SteamVR multiplication -> DCS PD multiplication
PICO4 VD Oculus runtime : VD setting -> DCS PD multiplication
PICO4 VD OpenVR runtime : VD setting -> SteamVR multiplication -> DCS PD multiplication

Now moving to PICO4, when at the end of the above equations resulting into similar resolution, Quest and Pico could perform the same within VD and Airlink, so therefore I can say that I'm now able to achieve my objective on to ensuring that I get the same performance as Airlink.  In term of VD, I wont be using SteamVR/OpenVR runtime as they are :

a. seems to miss the sharpening level that I like (that VD has).  You can use Reshade in SteamVR, but the downside, they crash quite often in my case.

b. seems to have another unnecessary pipeline with nothing to gain.

c. To my liking, the visual quality (despite of everything tried), is better when using Oculus runtime used.

 

So I'm now settled with PICO4's Ultra: 2736x2736 VD setting, MSAA-off, wireless VD, Oculus runtime.  It is very sharp and almost make those jagged aliases gone, and still keeping up the fps to be playable (above 45fps).  My 5Ghz router is just 1.5meter away from my face so excellent bandwith and signal, no need cable for now.

Regarding the hardware, I'm still awaiting how RX7900XTX performs over 4080 or 4090.  So I can decide which one to grab to replace my old VGA (and CPU) all together.  Is DDR5 performs better than DDR4? this is for another topic over my next upgrade.

Thanks - and hope this can help anyone looking for answer.

[RealDCSpilot]

@cerebrave That's good data collection there! To get the scope of the huge differences, it helps to calculate the full amount of pixels in each case. As an example, your "...(my VD is high 2496x2592 vs Airlink 1856x1872)..." means 12.939.264 pixels to push for both eyes in VD vs only 6.948.864 pixels for both eyes in airlink.
I case of DCS, i would look for a better CPU (and maybe mainboard too) first. More than 6 cores and higher clock speeds help significantly (until a completely new engine might change this, but who knows when this is coming...). Regarding to RAM performance, this is all about budget. Slow DDR5 modules can be worse than higher clocked DDR4 modules. In my case, i bought a HEDT quad channel board years ago on purpose, getting crazy MB/s over 90.000 with DDR4@3600 for years while early DDR5's struggled to even reach 50.000. RAM speed can help in DCS, for shoveling data quickly from SSD to RAM to VRAM in your GPU but your CPU is always the middleman and should match the other system components accordingly or it will become the bottleneck. It's the old story, throwing money at the problem...

Edited November 28, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[cerebrave]

@RealDCSpilotThanks mate! its a helpful tips for my next upgrade. 

About the new engine... sigh!... everytime ED added more features, like clouds, weather, moving clouds, even modules.... I am feeling this "new engine" is moving further away... Other than It obviously show what they are actually working on, I would imagine that they might need to ensure those additional features (and modules) already thrown, are working in order under the new engine.

So yes, we need to reach our pocket deeper to throw more money to our rig to keep up...

[Oellness]

Hello,

i have a new Pico 4 and got the problem that my Standalone DCS crashes if i start a mission.

I see the loading screen and when it finished with loading it crashes.

I installed Virtual Desktop and SteamVR.

I start DCS from Virtual Desktop.

Can anyone tell me what i make wrong?

Thanks!

 

PS. I tested VR with a Quest2 (Oculus Software) and DCS runs without problems.

[cerebrave]

@Oellnesscan you describe a little bit more on the crash?  is it VD crash, PC crash or else?. Can you still move your head while seeing picture in its place, or does it move with your face hence make you dizzy?  Does it crash in loading screen or already in the mission but crash?  any error messages? etc etc.

DCS is a well known CPU and RAM hogs... so it may just be stalled but not crash, where you could just give it more time to load.  On heavy multiplayer mission (especially if it is a first mission load after you start DCS), I could even have to wait 1-2 minutes to let it load fully. 

[Oellness]

DCS throws a message that it crashes.

In the HMD i see something like a loading screen but the error message is only visible on the Monitor.

If i move my head the "loading" screen remains at its position. But it is not frozen.

It is the first mission after start of DCS bzt it is a start single mission for the a10II. 

Use DCS Standalone SteamVR?

[cerebrave]

@Oellness, got it.  I think I had the same issue sometime with steamVR (mentioned in my long post).  It appear you might be using OpenVR runtime? (you can see which runtime used by turning the performance fps monitoring in VD).

I use standalone DCS, and run VD with a shortcut using command like this :

"C:\Program Files\Virtual Desktop Streamer\VirtualDesktop.Streamer.exe" "C:\GAMES.ED\bin\DCS.exe"

(to avoid having to rightclick the VD icon and pick the DCS.exe manually).  This way I never had similar crash, and the runtime VD use will read Oculus.  I suppose, you may have to install Oculus software also - (but I'm not sure if this is necessary or not, because I previously was using Quest 2)

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Upgrade to a USC-C charging hub with Giga-ehternet for PCVR