TM Hotas Magnetic Base / dented O-ring

[Top Jockey]

Hello everyone,

After roughly 2 years of medium use, my Hotas Magnetic Base started to give a wobbling, weak resistance feeling to the stick when pulling aft.

After careful disassembly of the base cilinder, noticed that the 2.5 inch dameter O-ring which sits between the top of the plastic gimbal rim, and below the main spring disc, was:

- getting out of its place (coming up)

- twisted

- slightly dented. 

(I suppose the poor-quality lube it has from factory got too sticky, and stopped doing its work.)

 

My doubt is:

- is this O-ring specific measures easy to find at any place (I live in Portugal) ?

- or, do I have necessarily to ask Thrustmaster for one ?

 

Thank you.

 

 

[Hempstead]

Send me a msg... I still sell laser cut PTFE ring for this problem, as a community service. Still USD $8 apiece; haven't increased the price ever... even though my raw material price and mailing costs have gone up quite a bit.

 

If you prefer to make it yourself... search for PTFE ring in this forum. There is a spec. for making it yourself.

[Top Jockey]

2 minutes ago, Hempstead said:

Send me a msg... I still sell laser cut PTFE ring for this problem, as a community service. Still USD $8 apiece; haven't increased the price ever... even though my raw material price and mailing costs have gone up quite a bit.

 

If you prefer to make it yourself... search for PTFE ring in this forum. There is a spec. for making it yourself.

 

Will do right away.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Mine also came off after a few month of use. Just took it out and didn't put in a replacement. That has been working for years. Never noticed any difference.

[Top Jockey]

1 minute ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

Mine also came off after a few month of use. Just took it out and didn't put in a replacement. That has been working for years. Never noticed any difference.

 

Hello @Svend_Dellepude,

Also thought about it - leaving it without the dented O-ring, re-grease all the physical parts with silicon lube, and assemble everything.

 

My doubt is:

- being the 2 parts (gimbal rim and the main spring disc) both in plastic, wouldn't that couse damaging friction / wear in the long run ?

[Mud]

The PTFE ring works perfectly, and I have not noticed any wear or damage on my gimbal in about 8-9 years and +1500 flight hours.

[Top Jockey]

2 minutes ago, Mud said:

The PTFE ring works perfectly, and I have not noticed any wear or damage on my gimbal in about 8-9 years and +1500 flight hours.

 

Very good.

Didn't know the PTFE material until talking with Hempstead yesterday, but is it a flexible material like the original rubber O-ring, or is it of stiff consistence / inflexible ?

[Mud]

It's pretty stiff indeed.  Like "slippery" plastic

[Top Jockey]

By 'slippery' I take it is somewhat like: self-lubricant plastic ?

But even so, wouldn't it be of big friction between the 2 plastic parts ?

[Mud]

55 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

By 'slippery' I take it is somewhat like: self-lubricant plastic ?

But even so, wouldn't it be of big friction between the 2 plastic parts ?

Well, PFTE is known to most people as Teflon, so it has very low friction.
I did put some lube on mine last time I opened my stick, but like I said: I saw no wear.

I remember seeing a post once by the person whom I think came up with the idea, where after testing, he noticed that if there is any wear at all it is the PFTE itself, and not the plastic ball of the Warthog.

I think a lot of people are using them, and I have no seen any issues reported by using it.

[Top Jockey]

20 hours ago, Hempstead said:

Send me a msg... I still sell laser cut PTFE ring for this problem, as a community service. Still USD $8 apiece; haven't increased the price ever... even though my raw material price and mailing costs have gone up quite a bit.

 

If you prefer to make it yourself... search for PTFE ring in this forum. There is a spec. for making it yourself.

 

Hello again @Hempstead,

I've sent you a PM already.

All the best.

[Hempstead]

Ok...

Let me answer some of OP's questions here as well in public, as I think some other people will be interested as well.

1. PTFE is indeed Teflon. But Teflon is a Dupont trade mark... best to avoid using it.
2. PTFE is known as the slickest substance known to wo/men.
3. It has several grades. It's usually a soft material. Very annoying to machine as clamping and machining often distort the material, making precision machining difficult. If you see some white plastic that is really hard, and also very slick, it's usually the other slick substance -- Delrin. Delrin is quite hard, approaching aluminum, but also very slick, a great candidate I also considered but decided against.
4. The PTFE ring dimension is 1/8" thick, OD=64mm, ID=53.5mm. I have no idea what the 40th Anniversary edition Warthog's O-ring size...
5. The ideas of the design of the PTFE ring is as the followings:

• a). There is a slight relative movement between the rim of the gimbal half ball and the spring piston platform (very slight, but there is about 0.5mm to 1mm movement).
• b). Due to the slight relative movement, I chose the slickest substance PTFE to reduce the friction.
• c). The biggest problem with the OOB 2-layer construction of rubber ring is that it's too flexible to hold in position by itself so it was glued down with something like a double-sided tape. This... often got attacked by oil and grease due to "enthusiastic" oiling/greasing. And eventually, the rubber ring got out of position and got pinched and broke (or the thin slick plastic layer simply wore out).
• d). To resolve #c... the PTFE ring must be stiff enough to hold itself in position without requiring glue or other mechanical fastening. Several experiments like one-side bondable PTFE backed with an aluminum ring etc... showed that eventually, a 1/16" thick solid PTFE ring would suffice. It would be stiff enough to hold itself in that space without any glue or fastener.
• e). I made it 1/8" thick because the thicker, the stiffer, the more "meat" for wear and tear. At this thickness, it's slightly too thick... so that you lose a bit of extreme deflection of the stick movement. However, after a week or two of use, the PTFE ring will get "pressed" out with a groove, reducing the effective thickness, and you get back your extreme deflection. Therefore, I would recommend that you calibrate when you first install it, and then calibrate it after two weeks of active use.
• f). Theoretically, since PTFE is the slickest substance known to wo/men, you shouldn't need lube, right? Well... I use PTFE-based grease, SuperLube, which basically is some kind of gel with microscopic PTFE balls... meaning rolling friction is better than sliding friction. it is indeed much more smooth with SuperLube. I disassemble and clean/re-grease about every 500 flight hours. My prototype #0 hand cut PTFE ring since 2011, with 3,000+ hours (if not 4,000+ hrs) on it still look brand new. A lot of Europeans favor Molykote, I don't use that... but what I heard is that it works fine. Basically, you can use grease that is plastic safe.
• g). The other property about PTFE is that it's very inert. It almost never react with any chemical. It's often used as the coating of magnetic stirrer in beakers in chemical labs. You probably won't have to worry about whether the grease is compatible with PTFE rather whether its compatible with the steel and plastic in the Warthog. Still, I recommend using some plastic and electronic safe grease. Just in case, you know.
• h). Even though PTFE is soft... it's quite a bit harder than the OOB rubber ring. The rubber ring also causes a buffering cushion effect. So, with a PTFE ring, the stick feels a bit more "snappy" than with a rubber ring. Most people like it, but not everybody. Softer or snappy... does not affect the resolution or accuracy due to the MLX90333 Hall sensor used (if it's a traditional gimbal, this "cushioning" effect would affect your accuracy, very undesirable).

 

The other thing about just getting rid of the rubber ring and run naked. Well.... of course that will work. And a lot of people swear that no wear and tear is observed. Well... knock yourself out. It's not a great engineering practice to let plastic butt against steel with relative movement (small) without a sacrificial/buffering material in between. But, hey, it's your stick. Moreover, it really depends much to the surface roughness of the steel plate in the spring platform. From the two Warthog I have (both pre-ordered), it's made of cold roll steel, usually smoother than hot rolled. But if they change that... or the Chinese OEM factory apply the common 差不多 (about there) mentality and swap the supplier and went for the cheaper hot roll..... YMMV. My recommendation is... don't do it. And if you must, grease the hell out of it.

I am not "eager" to sell more, as I view this PTFE ring thing as a community service. I pretty much don't make any money (if I charge you hourly labor rate as a software developer, I certainly lose money on it). So, I am not giving you an ad to advocate buying PTFE rings. I am giving you an honest opinion on best practice in engineering. You make your own judgment, and bear your own consequences.

 

if you want to make the ring yourself... go ahead and knock yourself out.

 

If you still want to order PTFE rings, then drop me a message on this forum. I will send you instruction on how to order. BTW, it's still the same USD $8 apiece. Limit to 2x PTFE rings per Warthog, please.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Hempstead

[Top Jockey]

Hello again,

So, after greasing the interiors / moving parts / gimbal / etc. of the magnetic base, all was assembled again.

( It was the first time I ever did any maintenance in a joystick. )

However it barely has 2 years yet, and even bearing in mind that Thrustmaster joystick isn't a Virpil or VKB, I still wasn't expecting a product of this level / range to be so failure prone, i.e. poor lube, weak rubber O-rings from factory.

 

Results:

- it is early to know if the lube "Ultimate racing shock oil silicone 15.000" will keep the dented O-ring in its place;

( In Portugal, stuff like "Nyogel" aren't exactly around the corner.)

- however... because the O-ring was a little bit dented, it causes a very slight uncommanded displacement on the grip to the right side.

[Top Jockey]

Yep, forget about it ... didn't last 24 hours.

- the piece of garbage OEM rubber o-ring got out of place again;

- ok, it was slightly dented (I've seen much worst on photos at the forum), but I greased it generously and thought that could hold it in place for a while;

- played a few hours yesterday at nights start, and today a mere hour;

... until the rubber o-ring got out of its place again causing the respective loss of strenght in center position, and less resistance in several directions.

 

Not going to use it in these conditions, will wait for the PTFE ring.

Even the cheaper, 'entrance level' TopGun Afterburner lasted 17 years without giving any headache.

(The only thing that stopped me from going to a Virpil when I bought this, was their prices: Base + Grip, and absurd order / waiting list.)

 

 

[Top Jockey]

Hello again.

Just a follow up on the situation:

 

- this week received the PTFE rings, thank you @Hempstead, which I'll be installing briefly and try;

- also I've been exchanging emails with the TH support ... to which after provinding them photos, magnetic base serial number and invoice, they've sent me a complete pressure plate / disc with the original rubber-o-ring, because "they come togheter", and I was under warranty.

 

Not that I needed it, as I'll be using the PTFE ring, but for an expensive product, I wanted to send the message that their costumers do need support for some less quality parts.