Apache controls settings opinions and input please

[markturner1960]

Hi, I am new to flying Helos in DCS, but do have the Huey, Blackhawk which I find a lot easier to fly smoothly than the AH64. 

In setting up my controls, I have used the recent article in Heli simmer https://www.helisimmer.com/articles/real-pilot-impressions-ah-64d-apache-dcs, where a RL pilot gives his input and settings as a base. I have curves of 10 on the cyclic and pedals and use the special settings for trim of joystick & pedals with no springs or FFB, as he recommends. 

I have no spring and a damper on my pedals and use a 200mm extension on my Virpil stick, although I have the new CM3 arriving next week, which I hope will give a more "realistic" experience when used in the manner whereby it stays in the position commanded.

I just wondered what the consensus was on this forum and if I was missing any tricks!

[cow_art]

Not sure if it's a consensus around the forums but one thing that helps me with flying (more) smoothly is to turn off the SAS channel for the collective. It's currently bugged and introduces a lot of yaw instability. 

 

Edit: disregard the remark below. Raptor yesterday mentioned here

that the force trim release (FTR) is already working correctly in the latest build. The FTR is meant to be held down during inputs (not just clicked like I have been doing so far). So the problems I mentioned below might just be user error

But even with that, I currently find the Apache to be more unpredictable and frustrating than the Huey/Blackhawk/any other helicopter sim I have tried in the last years. The SAS is still very much work in progress and trying to maneuver smoothly is currently an exercise in frustration for me. As much as I usually love to practice precision flying in helicopters, as long as the flight model is much closer to finished I'll skip that and focus on making things go boom (other things preferably, not my own ride ) .

Edited October 16, 2022 by cow_art

[markturner1960]

Thanks, I have read about that.....how do you turn it off? I dont recall that as an option anywhere? Is it in cockpit?

[NeedzWD40]

2 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

Thanks, I have read about that.....how do you turn it off? I dont recall that as an option anywhere? Is it in cockpit?

MPD main menu > UTIL > COLL channel to off.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Test diff settings to see what works for your setup. A stick extension is already an advantage over a regular short stick. But you could try cutting some Y saturation for further fine stick control. I think at the end of the day there is only so much one can do since it is WIP. In my case (standard warthog) I set them as => Cyclic: curve 15, dead 0, satY 90(pitch)/80(roll) | Collective: curve 15, dead 0. I also use the "tap-tap" trim method with instant trim for cyclic and pedals (regular VKB T). 

[markturner1960]

Thanks, will try that! Can you explain the "Tap Tap"? Cheers! 

 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

16 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

Thanks, will try that! Can you explain the "Tap Tap"? Cheers! 

 

Oh I borrowed the term from this tutorial. Tap is basically pressing and releasing the force trim release. I find I need lots of micro trimming with the Apache. And with instant trim on (which I find gives me a quicker response), it's lots of tap-recenter-tap to get the X where I want it in the controls indicator. Not sure I could fly without the controls indicator without losing track of the stick's true position. With this method, I seldom do a trim reset which can have a drastic effect. So with the helo modules, I watch where my controls are in the controls indicator since my physical hotas can't give a true representation.

[markturner1960]

OK...I think I will wait until my new Virpil cm3 arrives, before I start fiddling with settings, I am hoping that this will behave much like the real stick in that it can be set up to stay in the commanded position......

 

Thank you! 

[markturner1960]

And thanks for the link to Volks stuff, I had not come across him before, some really great tutorials there! 

[placsea]

7 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

And thanks for the link to Volks stuff, I had not come across him before, some really great tutorials there! 

Volk is a treasure, can't say I would enjoy DCS half as much without his work especially as someone who only uses helicopters. 

[markturner1960]

I spent a good few hours yesterday flying the bird and have the following observations:

1) Introducing Y axis saturation of 90 and increasing curves to approx 25 has transformed the experience…… much smoother and less unstable 

2) I am finding I don’t really need to use the force trim - my cyclic is easy to hold in position with the Virgil Z extension and the tension dialled down and I have no spring on my rudders and a damper installed. I can hold any position of controls input and transition pretty nicely. 
3) Which brings me to the question of force trim - if I do set trim, the only way I seem to be able to unset it is to re center the controls and trim again….is this right? In real life am I correct that the function of the force trim is simply to hold all controls in a certain position, so the pilot can go hands off? In which case I would observe that much of the debate around using force trim on here seems to be centred on using it to get around shortfalls in the flight model and hardware limitations, rather than emulating how the Helo flies in real life…..or have I misinterpreted this?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

2 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

1) Introducing Y axis saturation of 90 and increasing curves to approx 25 has transformed the experience…… much smoother and less unstable 

3) Which brings me to the question of force trim - if I do set trim, the only way I seem to be able to unset it is to re center the controls and trim again….is this right? In real life am I correct that the function of the force trim is simply to hold all controls in a certain position, so the pilot can go hands off? In which case I would observe that much of the debate around using force trim on here seems to be centred on using it to get around shortfalls in the flight model and hardware limitations, rather than emulating how the Helo flies in real life…..or have I misinterpreted this?

25 curve - that's quite a spike in input at the outer ranges (after the flat part of the curve) of the stick motion. Reducing Sat Y should mean not having to resort to too much curve. It's a bit of a balance between the two, although Sat Y reduction means you lose a corresponding amount of sim stick range. Ppl lower Sat Y to achieve a more gradual input when they feel they don't need the full sim range of the stick (or collective). But hey whatever works for you

Force trim. Yes, you are right as I understand it. This video explains the helo sim hardware dilemma. You could use trim or trim reset when your stick is back at center if you do trim. You can have a look at this too. I thought it was a really good video to understand trim in a real Mi-24. If you do trim - Instant trim would compound your input if you held the stick in position. Central position trimmer means having to center your stick each time after trimming which kind of defeats the purpose of having your type of stick setup where you want to hold it in position. Actually, without a stick that can stay in position when the hand is off, you are essentially in the same situation trim-wise as regular hotas users, unless you intend to hold the stick in position throughout and not trim. Did I get it right?    
 

Edited October 18, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[markturner1960]

Thanks for the feedback, I dont find it a big issue ( although still a WIP) as I find that for small corrections and fine control, I am working the stick in a small range of movement so dont come up against the steeper part of the curve in these. 

Trim - Yes, you are right, I will revisit this conversation once my new CM3 has arrived and been set up....

[pii]

On 10/17/2022 at 3:53 AM, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Oh I borrowed the term from this tutorial. Tap is basically pressing and releasing the force trim release. I find I need lots of micro trimming with the Apache. And with instant trim on (which I find gives me a quicker response), it's lots of tap-recenter-tap to get the X where I want it in the controls indicator. Not sure I could fly without the controls indicator without losing track of the stick's true position. With this method, I seldom do a trim reset which can have a drastic effect. So with the helo modules, I watch where my controls are in the controls indicator since my physical hotas can't give a true representation.

Quit looking at the control indicator and look out the window and fly it. I only look at it when I am about to take off, set it to take off and away I go, after that its eyeballs off for the most part. 

Can't you drive unless you are staring at the cars steering wheel? Its the same with that indicator, you don't need to stare at it to fly .

It also sounds like you may be trimmimg way too often when landing. But that a different subject. 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Quit looking at the control indicator and look out the window and fly it. I only look at it when I am about to take off, set it to take off and away I go, after that its eyeballs off for the most part. 
Can't you drive unless you are staring at the cars steering wheel? Its the same with that indicator, you don't need to stare at it to fly .
It also sounds like you may be trimmimg way too often when landing. But that a different subject. 

I don’t stare at it. I reference it once in a while but mainly for hover. Oh please, it’s completely different from driving a car.

[pii]

2 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

I don’t stare at it. I reference it once in a while but mainly for hover. Oh please, it’s completely different from driving a car.

Never said you stared at it. I'm wondering why you need to look at it when landing though? I look at the FPV that I place on the landing site, I have no reason to look at that indicator to land, I'm far more concerned with decent rate and air speed.

My point is that you will get better if you stop looking at symbology and indicators and look out the window. 

And it is excatly like driving a car. Do you watch the wheel when driving, I'm going to guess you don't, like everyone else?

 Well you don't need to watch that indicator to land either.

Since you don't seem receptive to my post I bid you farwell and happy flying.

[Floyd1212]

If driving my car meant my hands were glued to the wheel at "10 & 2", and I had a spring-return on my steering wheel (God help us all), and there could be a scenario where the alignment of my steering wheel might not match the direction my actual wheels are pointing, you better believe I might occasionally look at my steering wheel, and whatever indicator that is provided to show what the current discrepancy is between the two.

Have you ever gotten back into a parked car and your wheel was one full revolution from center and you were caught off-guard when you started rolling backwards out of the parking spot and you realized the wheels were actually turned?

Yes, we see your point about flying with your eyes out the window, but having information about what the simulator is doing with the controls vs your IRL controls is helpful.

[markturner1960]

So I have got the new CM3 and got it set up........its very nice. I have got it currently on very weak resistance on both axis and the clutchs adjusted so it holds it easily in position in the central and middle areas of the range of movement. It took some time to figure out the best amount of clutch friction, so its still easy to make small adjustments, but I have to say its really very good to fly now and now I find I basically never touch the trim.........