Vikhr Underwhelming Damage against Airbourne targets

[Go_dzilla]

I just hit a Mig-29 with 2 Vikhr missiles and it wasn't even damaged(only slight visual damage), it even shot me down afterwards with a heat seeker. The other day I hit a F-5 straight on the nose and it just kept flying.

Considering it takes only 1 Vikhr to kill a battle tank, the damage model is very strange. It shouldn't take more than 1 Vikhr missile to take out an airbourne target right?
I'll keep the .trk file and Tacview files, in case someone gets a chance to look at this.

[River]

Same, shot at a Mi 24 twice head on. No damage. Mi 24 has some DM problems at the moment if I remember correctly. 

[Go_dzilla]

I think I may have found some clues about this issue from the following posts from 2011 Vikhr in Air to Air Mode(reposted below).

-Apparantly the vikhr has 2 warheads. 1 conical shaped forward blasting warhead (impact fused, I assume) and 1 smaller HE charge (proximity fused, I'm guessing).

-In order to achieve max damage on an airborne target the proximity fuse has to be set to the correct timing(2.5-3.5).

-The timing of the proximity fuse can be changed by selecting the Air to air head-on aspect buttons(see picture)
 

The problem is that I've been getting very mixed and unconclusive results between using different fuse timings i.e. with or without head-on aspect selected.
It seems pretty random and more about luck than skill. That's what bothers me.

Would be great if we had more test results from different people scenarios. I'm currently only testing it against jet fighters.

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Go_dzilla

[Go_dzilla]

20 hours ago, River said:

Same, shot at a Mi 24 twice head on. No damage. Mi 24 has some DM problems at the moment if I remember correctly. 

Did you have the head on thingy button enabled?

[River]

13 minutes ago, Go_dzilla said:

Did you have the head on thingy button enabled?

Yes, the head on thingy was enabled. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by River

[Nickkerkwijk]

I think there is a problem with the AI damage model. Heli and airplanes eat multiple air to ground missiles but wil crash after a aim9 or r73 hit with a much smaller warhead

[atfx]

Hello !

Same problem with ground targets and Su25T ...
It's now hard to destroy a target with Vikhr since the update to DCS 2.8.

[Go_dzilla]

15 hours ago, atfx said:

Hello !

Same problem with ground targets and Su25T ...
It's now hard to destroy a target with Vikhr since the update to DCS 2.8.

Hi,

That's interesting. I havn't flown the Frogfoot in a while but last time I flew it, it could destroy pretty much anything on the ground. You should totally check out the Su-25T forum posts.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Go_dzilla
added text

[Go_dzilla]

I did a few more tests comparing the different Vikhr settings and different aspects.
I still think think the Vikhrs could use a little bit more power. But more then that, I think there's something wrong with the A/A button in the Ka-50...I don't think it works properly.
Uploaded a caomparison video on the tube.

I found that when it comes to the Ka-50 VS helos using the AA button in combination with the AA H/O button gives better damage results regadless of actual target aspect.
 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Go_dzilla
added test results

[Volk.]

few different things at play here:

AI helos take unnatural levels of punishment.

as one example, both contact fusing only and proxy fusing hits. This from a missile that melted the opposite wing when hitting a Tu-16 in the one engine. I can't recall but they might have patched the Havoc specifically, but few months ago I still saw Mi-8's taking AIM-120s to the engine and keep trucking without smoke. Apache Hydra rockets and M230 rounds as well as S-8 rockets, no problem for them apparently. Tail hits seem to kill them one-shot often enough - I'm surrpised that Hind took even one of your Vikhrs in the tail and kept going @Go_dzilla - that's unlucky or exceptionally messed up damage model as you say.

The can drop smoking, but sometimes the smoke goes out and they recover, so stick with them till they die - wait for the fireball. If they manage to land safely, they appear to get even more immortal, and you can separate pretty much all their components - they won't fly again, but still count as 'alive' and don't despawn.

It's a general DCS AI helo (or maybe even AI aircraft) issue, not related to the Vikhr.

 

As for the A/A mode. A/A H/O does make a difference:

timestamped you can see when the missile triggers. However, in practice, vs. stuff that the fragmentation sleeve should kill (i.e. not an armoured tank), I've found you can shoot down e.g. SAMs midair with A/A or A/A H/O with about the same effect. One would figure H/O would be necessary for it to "catch" a supersonic missile headed straight at you, but possible the frag sleeve's detonation was enough to still catch it.

 

Now. All those things happened before DCS 2.8. So it might have changed.

 

[Go_dzilla]

Wow the Black Shark legend Volk himself! Big Fan! Can I just quickly add that your You Tube videos helped alot in learning how to fly the Ka-50 in DCS. I even searched you channel for Ka-50 "Air to Air" before starting this thread!
 Really appreciate your input!
 

13 hours ago, Volk. said:

AI helos take unnatural levels of punishment.

That is sadly true. One of the other DCS modules I own is the Harrier. Since helos are so good at dodging heat seekers I started using APKWS or laser guided rockets against them with very good results in terms of accuracy but as you mentioned above it is almost impossible to kill an AI helo with even a handful of those. (I even tried using AGM-65s against helos at some point. Accuracy was very bad you'd be lucky to get a hit but damage was overwhelming! It took 1 missle.)
 

 

13 hours ago, Volk. said:

It's a general DCS AI helo (or maybe even AI aircraft)

The reason I started this thread was because of Ka-50 + AI aircraft + Marianas map. Imagine you take of from Anderson AB to attack ground targets at ROTA. After what feels like an eternity of flying you get jumped by a fighter jet. You keep your cool. You go through the AA checklist/procedure. You do everything correct, even score a hit or 2 on the enemy just to find out nothing happened and seconds later you get shot down? That is sooooooooooooooooooooo frustrating!

Initially I started testing Vikhrs on AI aircrafts but decided to do a video on helos since the effects are more visible. Against jets, after the first 2 Vikhrs the enemy will start evasive maneuvers i.e. hard left & climb then hard right and swoop down on you with a heat seeker. Guess what I'm trying to say is that VS jets if your first 2 missiles don't hit your chances of survival kinda drops drastically. I've hit Tigers, Flankers, Hornets and other jets with 3 Vikhrs without being able to afflict enough damage to at least deter them from their attack. Getting shot down after hitting the enemy jet with 3 or so Vikhrs is a total DCS buzz kill !!!
 

 

 

13 hours ago, Volk. said:

As for the A/A mode. A/A H/O does make a difference:

In your video, the proximity fused Vikhr explodes directly above/next to a non moving target. But somehow I think that is just not the case with fast moving targets.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Go_dzilla

[atfx]

On 11/27/2022 at 10:43 AM, Go_dzilla said:

Hi,

That's interesting. I havn't flown the Frogfoot in a while but last time I flew it, it could destroy pretty much anything on the ground. You should totally check out the Su-25T forum posts.

 

For my part, I've created a simple mission : Su25T - 1 target.
With Vikhr, I've destroyed the target only 2 times of 8.
Topic created for vikhr with Su25T : 

 

[Go_dzilla]

Oh Ok. I see now, my mistake, failed to engage the H/O aspect button when attacking jets head on with Vikhrs.

I did a few more tests in ME firing at jets from the sides and rear without engaging the H/O button and it takes on average 2 Vikhrs to kill a jet.
So not activating the H/O aspect button when shooting at jets head on with the Vikhrs can result in minimum damage being inflicted to the enemy aircraft.
My problem was not related to the high amount of damage it takes to kill a helo(thats already a known and different issue).
I deleted the video since the test results were based on...ummm...an unusual situation with helo damage.

Thanks for the help and ideas all.
 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Go_dzilla
edited text

[Go_dzilla]

Based on the info gained from this thread, I made a quick tutorial on air to air (versus jets). Again, thx everyone.
 

 

[RPY Variable]

Two double tap shots (4 hits total). One front aspect, other rear aspect and did nothing to a player driven Hind. The Vikhr warhead only weight as much as an entire Igla. In my opinion this is a bug.

https://streamable.com/fyic2k

Edited December 11, 2022 by RPY Variable