Looking for a performance estimate for a new computer build...

[Kageseigi]

Hello! I'm using a 10-year old PC (i7-4820k and DDR3 RAM), so I'm really needing a new build for DCS. But I'm not quite sure what I should aim for.

Right now, I'm looking to play at 1080p at 60hz (I do love my 60-inch tv, so why not use it?). And I currently have an RX 580 GPU. I'm curious what kind of performance and quality the GPU can handle on DCS if it weren't limited by my dinosaur of a computer (I can't even get the game to launch anymore on Windows 8.1).

I was about to jump on an RX 6750 GPU deal, but figured I needed to first get a system to actually put it in. And I'm also not sure if such an extreme GPU upgrade would even be warranted for 1080p.

As for the CPU, I've read that a 5600 is decent for gaming in general, and quite affordable, though I am truly tempted to go for the 5800X3D, especially for VR. I know AM4 is on the way out, but I'm sure it is still a completely different world from my current PC. I am looking for a budget build, though. There's no specific budget, but the less it is, the faster I'll be able to play.

What kind of performance should I expect if I were to play with a 5600 and an RX 580, even if I have to wait to upgrade later for VR? What kind of GPU would not bottleneck the 5600? What CPU/GPU combination would it take to run non-VR DCS at 1080p on high/ultra setting at a minimum of 60fps (especially on a multiplayer server)?

I'm so ready to finally take full advantage of the F-14 module... I just need a new engine for it! Thank you! :-)

Edited January 18, 2023 by Kageseigi

[Lurker]

First things first. There is a huge difference between what is needed in DCS World for VR and what is needed for great 1080p performance. If you want the former you will need to spend a HUGE amount of money or (please note this is NOT hyperbole) you will be disappointed. Even when spending an absolute pile of money on your gaming rig to get the best and fastest hardware money can buy, you might still end up being disappointed with how it all performs. Case in point, my 3090 was a great card a year ago. Still a great card today, just not for VR in DCS. Now to get stable framerates a 4090 is required. But I digress..

Let's get back to some more realistic expectations. Performance at 1080p. I hate to break it to you but that RX580 is also a dinosaur. At least as far as DCS is concerned. You will need a full system upgrade. Which means a new CPU (and cooler), new RAM, new motherboard, new graphics card, new M2NVMe SSD, and very probably a new PSU and case. 

For 1080p performance the 5600X will probably be more than enough, but if you really want great frames then the CPU will be the limiting factor here, depending on the graphics card. DCS likes team green. Go with Nvidia this time round. Since the 4XXX series came out you can find great deals on the RTX 3XXX series, and all of them will do great at 1080p though I wouldn't go lower than a 3070. The rest is easy, 32GB of DDR4 rated for 3200, decent M2 SSD storage (don't even think of going below 1TB here, since DCS will eat up a full third of that drive, maybe even more) a 750Watt power supply (I have an HCGAntec 750W and it absolutely is more than enough for my needs, despite me having a ton of peripherals and a 3090) and a motherboard of your choice that will support all of that. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Lurker

[EightyDuce]

4 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

Hello! I'm using a 10-year old PC (i7-4820k and DDR3 RAM), so I'm really needing a new build for DCS. But I'm not quite sure what I should aim for.

Right now, I'm looking to play at 1080p at 60hz (I do love my 60-inch tv, so why not use it?). And I currently have an RX 580 GPU. I'm curious what kind of performance and quality the GPU can handle on DCS if it weren't limited by my dinosaur of a computer (I can't even get the game to launch anymore on Windows 8.1).

I was about to jump on an RX 6750 GPU deal, but figured I needed to first get a system to actually put it in. And I'm also not sure if such an extreme GPU upgrade would even be warranted for 1080p.

As for the CPU, I've read that a 5600 is decent for gaming in general, and quite affordable, though I am truly tempted to go for the 5800X3D, especially for VR. I know AM4 is on the way out, but I'm sure it is still a completely different world from my current PC. I am looking for a budget build, though. There's no specific budget, but the less it is, the faster I'll be able to play.

What kind of performance should I expect if I were to play with a 5600 and an RX 580, even if I have to wait to upgrade later for VR? What kind of GPU would not bottleneck the 5600? What CPU/GPU combination would it take to run non-VR DCS at 1080p on high/ultra setting at a minimum of 60fps (especially on a multiplayer server)?

I'm so ready to finally take full advantage of the F-14 module... I just need a new engine for it! Thank you!

 

To be honest, you will need to decide whether you want 1080p maxed out (without too much overshoot) or VR before anyone can make a serious recommendation, right now your requirements cover the whole spectrum. There is a substantial gap between the two setups. Now, if you're looking to spend some money on a VR setup, it will play 1080p maxed out; however, a 1080p setup will get you a subpar VR experience. 

 

[Kageseigi]

28 minutes ago, EightyDuce said:

To be honest, you will need to decide whether you want 1080p maxed out (without too much overshoot) or VR before anyone can make a serious recommendation

 

Thank you. I think for now, 1080p maxed out at 60fps is my first target. I just got TrackIR, so VR isn't a necessity.

[Lurker]

34 minutes ago, Kageseigi said:

Thank you. I think for now, 1080p maxed out at 60fps is my first target. I just got TrackIR, so VR isn't a necessity.

Good choice. In DCS switching to VR is like chasing the dragon. You can't go back to TrackIR, but at the same time you can't get it setup exactly how you want it and you keep chasing the FPS counter. It's frustrating in how addictive it is. I'm seriously thinking of going back to TrackIR at least for the fixed wing aircraft. 

[Glide]

You should replace the entire unit.  The monitor is fine.  If you are using TrackIR you can get excellent performance from even an old card like the 1080Ti.  If you want to move to VR that's a much bigger investment.  Get as much VRAM in your GPU as you can afford.  This is the big limiter for flight sims.  10GB of VRAM is a good place to start.

Check out Asus ROG for some sales.  Dell is good too. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Glide

[Lurker]

VRAM size is only one factor. Bus bandwidth is actually even more important, which is why the 4070Ti for example, is a terrible, absolutely terrible card for VR. It has great performance at 1080p, but that 192bit BUS bandwidth is limiting it horribly at higher resolutions and VR despite that card having 12 GB or GDDR6X ram, which is absolutely wasted on it. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Lurker

[Kageseigi]

Thanks, guys. Yes, the plan is to build a new computer from scratch (unless I see a good deal on a decent prebuilt).

It looks like I may just go for a "stop-gap" PC to hold me over until I can really get into the AM5 generation tech.

So I may go for something like a 5600, then try to find a GPU at its level.

It looks like I'll probably get a GPU last, though. While my RX 580 may be the weakest link in the new build, it can at least run the game decently on lower settings. I just gave it a test on my Windows 10, and it still works enough to fly.

I'm starting to think that I need to upgrade my stick/throttle even before my GPU, else I will be flying a very pretty plane straight into the ground, haha!

Edited January 19, 2023 by Kageseigi

[BuzzU]

Two words.

 

Bank loan.

[Dragon1-1]

8 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

It looks like I may just go for a "stop-gap" PC to hold me over until I can really get into the AM5 generation tech.

FYI, I get good VR performance on my 1080Ti and a Ryzen 5800X3D. I run a Reverb G2 on 80%, fairly eyecandy-heavy, and singleplayer only (MP is another matter). Sure, there is some aliasing, but people who think that a 4090 is a requirement for DCS VR are not optimizing their setup properly, instead powering through SteamVR bugs, outdated DCS engine and other issues with brute force. Between OpenXR, being smart about resolution (Reverb's defaults include fairly hefty supersampling) and actually optimizing things, you can get good performance without buying an overpriced, overpowered GPU.

For the record, my recommendations for a VR-capable system that won't set you back a fortune are:
Ryzen 5800X3D. Hands down the best CPU for graphics heavy stuff, AM4. All X3D CPUs run hot, so get a good cooler (I use an AIO watercooler with two 120mm fans, works great).
Unless you can get a PCI4.0 GPU, you can use an older mobo which only does PCI3.0. Those tend to be much cheaper.
Pay attention to your memory latency. I have 32GB of CL16 DDR4 RAM at 3200MHz, which is the best that CPU can support. Latencies are important in DDR4 and DDR5. DCS can use 64GB, but it doesn't need to unless you do multiplayer, and lower capacity can have a lower latency, which is good.
Get a good, fast SSD to put DCS on. Ideally an M.2. Running it off a HDD will wreck your performance.
The graphics card is critical and really expensive, so you may want to check out older generation GPUs like the 1080ti or 2080ti, or the AMD equivalents. After all the crazies went to 3090 and 4090 they might be available. Just watch out for crypto farm handmedowns, those can be worn out (although, they're nice for driving down the prices of good units). It might be better to get a higher end, but older GPU, as opposed to a lower end one from a newer generation, and that's because DCS is rather VRAM-hungry, particularly VR. The 1080ti can be old, but it's got 11GB of VRAM, while the 4070 has 8GB, albeit faster. Counterintuitively, the 1080ti might outperform the 4070 in some areas, particularly in applications which can't really use most of the new tech such as tensor cores, but hog VRAM. DCS is one of those.
Try to get a case with plenty of space and good airflow. Mine almost fits the bill. You can go with a miniATX mobo, but anything except a full ATX case is asking for trouble. 
Don't neglect the PSU. Not only do you need to power the GPU and CPU, but also the fans to cool all this (and the pump if you're going with water). This adds up quickly.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[EightyDuce]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

FYI, I get good VR performance on my 1080Ti and a Ryzen 5800X3D. I run a Reverb G2 on 80%, fairly eyecandy-heavy, and singleplayer only (MP is another matter). Sure, there is some aliasing, but people who think that a 4090 is a requirement for DCS VR are not optimizing their setup properly, instead powering through SteamVR bugs, outdated DCS engine and other issues with brute force. Between OpenXR, being smart about resolution (Reverb's defaults include fairly hefty supersampling) and actually optimizing things, you can get good performance without buying an overpriced.

 

I think it should be mentioned that "good VR performance" is very subjective. 

As an example, I came from a 1080ti on a Reverb G2. While I could play in VR, I would personally not call it "good" as I had to turn down the eye candy and it still wasn't super smooth. Acceptable, maybe. I 'm on a 4090 now, most settings on High, clouds Ultra, 2xAA and I'm locked at 45fps with reprojection, buttery smooth. To me, that is good VR. 

So yeah, you don't need a 4090, but it will depend on what you consider acceptable/good. 

[Kageseigi]

Thank you for the suggestions!
I've been reading and searching. Assuming I don't go for the 5800X3D for VR (which I haven't ruled out), this looks like a possible build (minus the GPU) to get me started...

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/vdNG4s

Though if anything clearly jumps out as a bad idea, it would be good for me to hear so I can fix it, haha!

[Dragon1-1]

You should probably swap out the memory. From what I've found, Ryzen 5600 (and the 5800X3D as well) supports only up to 3200 DDR4 RAM. Yours is 3600 and CL18, you're paying in both CL and money for clock performance you can't use. Get a CL16 3200 RAM instead. It's not a whole lot of latency, but why be inefficient? 

Also, what kind of cooling solution have you considered? That Zalman doesn't look like it comes with a fan, or indeed, it doesn't look particularly good for high performance cooling. Probably fine for 5600, but for the 5800X3D, look for something designed from the outset to be festooned with fans, or even better, take a water radiator. Even if you don't start out using one, you never know what kind of solution you'd one day might upgrade to.

6 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

As an example, I came from a 1080ti on a Reverb G2. While I could play in VR, I would personally not call it "good" as I had to turn down the eye candy and it still wasn't super smooth. Acceptable, maybe. I 'm on a 4090 now, most settings on High, clouds Ultra, 2xAA and I'm locked at 45fps with reprojection, buttery smooth. To me, that is good VR. 

So yeah, you don't need a 4090, but it will depend on what you consider acceptable/good. 

What CPU? I've had my share of VR pain, particularly on more modern maps, which is why I upgraded to the 5800X3D (from an Intel 4770k), and now it's better. If you have VRAM aplenty, this can do as much as a GPU upgrade, particularly in complex missions. Also, are you sure you squeezed every last bit of juice out of it? That's the trick, OpenXR, turning down mirror resolution, disabling WMR mirror (they both cost more than I thought they would), cutting down VRAM use from WMR home, that sort of thing. There's a lot of needless chrome coming with VR by default that has to be disabled to avoid wasting resources.

[Lurker]

3 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

Thank you for the suggestions!
I've been reading and searching. Assuming I don't go for the 5800X3D for VR (which I haven't ruled out), this looks like a possible build (minus the GPU) to get me started...

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/vdNG4s

Though if anything clearly jumps out as a bad idea, it would be good for me to hear so I can fix it, haha!

Looks fine, though you really don't need anything faster than 3200MZH RAM, like Dragon already said. Also, you need a CPU cooler. The X3D chips tend to run much hotter than the regular 5XXX chips, but their TDP isn't too high at 105 Watts, but you will need a decent aftermarket cooler if you want to run the X3D. 

One other thing worth mentioning is the power supply. 650 Watts is simply too low if you want any kind of futureproofing of your system. You need at least 750Watts if you are planning on buying a new graphics card in the next year or so, and potentially you should aim even higher if that GPU is going to be a high end part. (Or if you want to keep your PSU for your next system build)

Edited January 20, 2023 by Lurker

[Kageseigi]

Thanks. Yes, I noticed that about the RAM. I'm still trying to find out more info about which speed to get (different sites say different things). So if 3200mhz is best, that should save a little more that I could put toward cooling. Speaking of which...

3 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Also, what kind of cooling solution have you considered? That Zalman doesn't look like it comes with a fan, or indeed, it doesn't look particularly good for high performance cooling.

Cases are one thing I'm not sure how to fully judge the quality of. My build is based on a blend of these two recommendations from the site...
https://pcpartpicker.com/guide/DWv6Mp/entry-level-amd-gaming-build
https://pcpartpicker.com/guide/cpkcCJ/great-amd-gaming-build

I wasn't sure if the case that came with the first one would provide enough cooling...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0785GRMPG?th=1

Although, reading over it again, it may be the better choice (assuming it's big enough).

I did see that the Zalman comes with 3 fans preinstalled, and has room for 5 more, though, and it's a bit bigger, so that's why I put it on my list.

I'll have to look more into other cooling options also... and check the PSU options for more wattage. Nothing is set in stone yet, haha! But I do appreciate all the suggestions!

[LucShep]

On 1/20/2023 at 1:05 PM, Kageseigi said:

Thanks. Yes, I noticed that about the RAM. I'm still trying to find out more info about which speed to get (different sites say different things). So if 3200mhz is best, that should save a little more that I could put toward cooling. Speaking of which...

Cases are one thing I'm not sure how to fully judge the quality of. My build is based on a blend of these two recommendations from the site...
https://pcpartpicker.com/guide/DWv6Mp/entry-level-amd-gaming-build
https://pcpartpicker.com/guide/cpkcCJ/great-amd-gaming-build

I wasn't sure if the case that came with the first one would provide enough cooling...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0785GRMPG?th=1

Although, reading over it again, it may be the better choice (assuming it's big enough).

I did see that the Zalman comes with 3 fans preinstalled, and has room for 5 more, though, and it's a bit bigger, so that's why I put it on my list.

I'll have to look more into other cooling options also... and check the PSU options for more wattage. Nothing is set in stone yet, haha! But I do appreciate all the suggestions!

The "budget" segment for PC cases is filled with pure garbage, such as those CM Q300L and Q500L -they're awful- and most of Zalman's cheapest stuff. There are far better options for little more money. Aim for at least 70$ budget just for the PC case (which will also have fans included) and you'll be much better served, more so for the longer term.

Probably the best option right now in the "budget" segment for PC Cases:

• Montech X3 Mesh - https://www.montechpc.com/en/products_detail.php?nid=229&s_ok2=

Other great options in same segment, though for these you'll have to buy and install 120mm fans separately into the front and/or rear:

• Phanteks Eclipse P300A - https://www.phanteks.com/Eclipse-P300A.html
• Phanteks Eclipse P360A  - https://www.phanteks.com/Eclipse-P360A.html
• Silverstone FARA R1 - https://www.silverstonetek.com/en/product/info/computer-chassis/FARAR1/
   

The downside with cases in the "budget" segment is, for the most part, their front to back size. Most of the available lower priced models are unable to fit a GPU inside with more than 305mm of lenght (only a few allow 355mm or bigger clearance for GPUs), so take your own GPU length measure into account when choosing one of these for your system.

Lastly, if your budget is tight and looking for a CPU cooler for your Ryzen 5XXX CPU, then the Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 is a phenomenal option at just $40.
It's a dual tower (+ dual fans) six heatpipes air-cooler, capable of handling 200W+, so it has room to mess about with OC, PBO and etc if ever desired - even on a 5800X3D.

Edited January 21, 2023 by LucShep

[Lurker]

There is a misconception that some cases are better cooled than others. ALL cases are bad for cooling. Where the better ones shine is in that they do not restrict airflow as much as the lower budget ones. (In addition to other things like a more ergonomic design, offering more space for extra drives, AIO fans etc.) 

In effect a case has three functions: 

1. To keep your hardware safe from any mechanical harm, or accidental spillage etc. that may potentially harm it

2. To keep your hardware as dust and dirt free as possible. (Which is why the best cases have mesh intakes, and a great airflow intake/outtake design)

3. To keep the noise levels of your hardware (coilwhine, etc.) as low as possible (this last one is contentious as some cases have so many fans that they can be quite noisy)

Having a great case is cool and everything, but it's not the first thing I look at when building a PC. Also, there are a lot, and I really mean a lot of cases that are very highly priced that are absolutely awful at one or all of the things I listed above, and sometimes even have awful airflow which is absolutely of the greatest importance if you plan on having a closed PC case. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Lurker

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

There is a misconception that some cases are better cooled than others. ALL cases are bad for cooling. Where the better ones shine is in that they do not restrict airflow as much as the lower budget ones. (In addition to other things like a more ergonomic design, offering more space for extra drives, AIO fans etc.) 

In effect a case has three functions: 

1. To keep your hardware safe from any mechanical harm, or accidental spillage etc. that may potentially harm it

2. To keep your hardware as dust and dirt free as possible. (Which is why the best cases have mesh intakes, and a great airflow intake/outtake design)

3. To keep the noise levels of your hardware (coilwhine, etc.) as low as possible (this last one is contentious as some cases have so many fans that they can be quite noisy)

Having a great case is cool and everything, but it's not the first thing I look at when building a PC. Also, there are a lot, and I really mean a lot of cases that are very highly priced that are absolutely awful at one or all of the things I listed above, and sometimes even have awful airflow which is absolutely of the greatest importance if you plan on having a closed PC case. 

 

Well, there's more than just airflow and filters, even if those are very significant aspects when choosing a case.
Quality of construction, the internal layout, spacings and extra room for cable management and peripherals, plus other little details (side panel fittings, screws fitting, PSU, SSD, HDD and filters mounting/dismounting ease, front panel and respective cables quality) are all aspects that are worth the extra money when you're building or doing maintenance with a pretty expensive system.
Build two identical systems, one in an el-cheapo garbage case, and the other on a top quality contender case, you'll notice huge differences 100% sure.

[Thinder]

On 1/18/2023 at 6:54 AM, Kageseigi said:

Hello! I'm using a 10-year old PC (i7-4820k and DDR3 RAM), so I'm really needing a new build for DCS. But I'm not quite sure what I should aim for.

Right now, I'm looking to play at 1080p at 60hz (I do love my 60-inch tv, so why not use it?). And I currently have an RX 580 GPU. I'm curious what kind of performance and quality the GPU can handle on DCS if it weren't limited by my dinosaur of a computer (I can't even get the game to launch anymore on Windows 8.1).

I was about to jump on an RX 6750 GPU deal, but figured I needed to first get a system to actually put it in. And I'm also not sure if such an extreme GPU upgrade would even be warranted for 1080p.

As for the CPU, I've read that a 5600 is decent for gaming in general, and quite affordable, though I am truly tempted to go for the 5800X3D, especially for VR. I know AM4 is on the way out, but I'm sure it is still a completely different world from my current PC. I am looking for a budget build, though. There's no specific budget, but the less it is, the faster I'll be able to play.

What kind of performance should I expect if I were to play with a 5600 and an RX 580, even if I have to wait to upgrade later for VR? What kind of GPU would not bottleneck the 5600? What CPU/GPU combination would it take to run non-VR DCS at 1080p on high/ultra setting at a minimum of 60fps (especially on a multiplayer server)?

I'm so ready to finally take full advantage of the F-14 module... I just need a new engine for it! Thank you!

 

If you run a Ryzen 3/3D best bound it with the RAM that will let your CPU free of bottleneck and there is no alternative to a Cl14 kit, preferably a 4 X 1 bank kit (interleaving).

Anything else and your CPU will throttle down under load, so better pay the premium for B.die than to figure it out when your PC suddenly slows down because your CPU can't handle the load.

Someone mentioned the bandwidth, well that's what it's all about, your CPU controller manage all the buses, for the RAM but also the GPU, its limits are 3200 MHz/4 banks with high street RAM, 32600 with B.die (Cl14) thanks to a much more stable chips material allowing for a wider range of of timing.

You can get a Corsair or GSkill kit 3200MHz and O.C it (they O.C very well) or a 3600MHz which is what I have but in any case, those CPUs won't let you go over 3600MHz, the cheaper 3200 kits will suit a lower budget and still offer the same performances but I chose not to O.C my PC in any case that's my personal choice.

In short nobody is gonna force you to pay the premium for those kits but once you realize the advantages, if you broke the piggy bank to get one, you won't regret it, especially with a Ryzen3D...

[Lurker]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:22 PM, LucShep said:

Build two identical systems, one in an el-cheapo garbage case, and the other on a top quality contender case, you'll notice huge differences 100% sure.

My point was more that the case should be functional and that a more expensive case does not necessarily mean a better case. You don't NEED to buy the most expensive case out there to get the functionality you need, and in effect the price of the case does not always equate to quality. 

[Thinder]

True that, my case is one of the cheapest in the market, yet it serves me well, I have 5 fans mounted on it plus the CPU fan, the difference with a more expensive one is perhaps the quality of the filters (?) and ease of cabling, it could be better but for the price, I can't complain.

I'd rather focus on the quality of the internals, PSU, fans, than spend twice more in a better looking case, you can find those for as low as £49.99 in EBay or £109.99 new at Overclocker.

Here I just finished with cabling, there are two slim fans (Noctua 15mm) mounted in the lower position to give room to the GPU, one is linked to it and doesn't kick under low load, plus one blowing upward through the opening from the bottom of the case, just what I needed.

In short, you need to prioritize, not spend the maximum in everything you buy...

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thinder