RB75 Contrast locks moving helicopters

[PinkCube]

Doesn't seem realistic that a contrast locking air-to-ground missile can shoot down moving helicopters. 

Surely the contrast lock would be broken and the missile would go stupid against a moving target. As modeled with all other contrast locking / IR mavericks I know of in the game against air targets.

Here is my example of the viggens AGM-65A versus the A10A AGM-65H. 

Thank you for your passion.
 

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by PinkCube

[LazyBoot]

What makes a helicopter different from a moving vehicle? (as seen from the missile)

[PinkCube]

31 minutes ago, LazyBoot said:

What makes a helicopter different from a moving vehicle? (as seen from the missile)

Constant and more changes in between the target and background clutter and without the aid of infra-red vision to enhance any differences in contrast is more likely to lose lock.

[Hobel]

Am 25.2.2023 um 17:56 schrieb PinkCube:

Constant and more changes in between the target and background clutter and without the aid of infra-red vision to enhance any differences in contrast is more likely to lose lock.

If the contrast is big enough the missile recognizes the contrast of the helicopter, sure it could happen from time to time that the missile gets confused, but just helicopters are very big targets that stand out well from the background, is there otherwise sources reading that supports your claim?

 

@Default774

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Hobel

[PinkCube]

On 3/26/2023 at 3:30 PM, Hobel said:

If the contrast is big enough the missile recognizes the contrast of the helicopter, sure it could happen from time to time that the missile gets confused, but just helicopters are very big targets that stand out well from the background, is there otherwise sources reading that supports your claim?

 

@Default774

 

 

nullThe AGM65A (same as RB75A afaik) has 5 degrees FOV. And I doubt it has the seeker logic to track and hit targets moving 250km/h, 12km away..

I will look for sources and documentation.

All I've found so far is a weapons evaluation for the D model which describes the slant ranges it was fired at around~2500meters at tanks.

Edited April 12, 2024 by PinkCube

[Hobel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb PinkCube:

nullThe AGM65A (same as RB75A afaik) has 5 degrees FOV. And I doubt it has the seeker logic to track and hit targets moving 250km/h, 12km away..

 

 This is also not necessary, the Seeker should recognize a contrast and a helicopter as well as a tank offer this contrast and  5° is more than enough

If the helicopter flanks you at 250 km/h, the Maverick should have problems, but if it flies directly or at a slight angle towards you?

 

and it is precisely these limits that can be observed with the Laser maverick.

Here are examples.
Once the best and the worst scenario for the Maverick.
In the first bad scenario, I Lock a helicopter with the Laser Maverick that flanks me and flies at 250km/h, the Missle catches the laser and also tries to fly towards the target, but cannot reach it because the limits of the Missle are simply reached, which is shown very well here, if the helicopter had been slower and closer, the missle would have had a better chance.
However, if the helicopter is flying straight towards me, the laser missle has absolutely no problems.

If I try the same thing with the IR Maverick, it can Lock the target on the station and hold it, so is Contrast are Valide here, but immediately after firing it loses the target?
A helicopter flying straight towards me is basically a stationary object for an IR sensor
In your opinion, what are the limitations in this situation?

 

 

 

[PinkCube]

On 4/12/2024 at 11:32 AM, Hobel said:

 

If I try the same thing with the IR Maverick, it can Lock the target on the station and hold it, so is Contrast are Valide here, but immediately after firing it loses the target?
A helicopter flying straight towards me is basically a stationary object for an IR sensor
In your opinion, what are the limitations in this situation?

 

The real limitations are how they're modeled in DCS. In real life, technology (old TV guided seeker)

These are different missiles to the AGM-65A (RB75). They have separate issues. 


Tracking moving targets:
As of now the RB75 - the earliest maverick - is superior to all the later mavericks because it appears to use a different logic in the game to the others. Here are the values I believe that the maximum speeds (in knots?) mavericks can lock targets in-game (mav A & B are recent additions in the latest patch):

RB75: 128
Mav A: 28
Mav B: 33

Clearly there is a problem in the game files if essentially the same missile has to different values. Why is the Rb75 capable of locking targets going 100kts faster than its equals?

As you said yourself the laser guided missiles also run out of energy before they can hit the target. the RB75 also calculates an intercept trajectory (I'll go on a whim and say this is completely fantasy).


Range of targets:

From this publicly available document https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/29/2001329786/-1/-1/0/AFD-100929-043.pdf there are some notes regarding how the maverick should lock targets based on their size and range.

null

null

According to this document they had to get closer for smaller targets. The image suggests that in real life locking a tank at 5miles is impossible (assuming it's the mav A and not the B), because of size and clutter. Locking a moving helicopter at 7.5miles with the ability to intercept and disregard clutter it is flying over is how it's actually modeled in DCS. 

Edited April 13, 2024 by PinkCube

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb PinkCube:

The real limitations are how they're modeled in DCS. In real life, technology (old TV guided seeker)

These are different missiles to the AGM-65A (RB75). They have separate issues. 


Tracking moving targets:
As of now the RB75 - the earliest maverick - is superior to all the later mavericks because it appears to use a different logic in the game to the others. Here are the values I believe that the maximum speeds (in knots?) mavericks can lock targets in-game (mav A & B are recent additions in the latest patch):

RB75: 128
Mav A: 28
Mav B: 33

Clearly there is a problem in the game files if essentially the same missile has to different values. Why is the Rb75 capable of locking targets going 100kts faster than its equals?

As you said yourself the laser guided missiles also run out of energy before they can hit the target. the RB75 also calculates an intercept trajectory (I'll go on a whim and say this is completely fantasy).


Range of targets:

From this publicly available document https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/29/2001329786/-1/-1/0/AFD-100929-043.pdf there are some notes regarding how the maverick should lock targets based on their size and range.

null

null

According to this document they had to get closer for smaller targets. The image suggests that in real life locking a tank at 5miles is impossible (assuming it's the mav A and not the B), because of size and clutter. Locking a moving helicopter at 7.5miles with the ability to intercept and disregard clutter it is flying over is how it's actually modeled in DCS. 

 

I didn't refer so much to the different missles, in fact I was more focused on the modern version.

when it comes to the older missles you are of course right that the limitations should be greater in terms of pure tracking.
I think and your document shows this very well(and thus you have provided direct proof), the pilot might still be able to roughly recognize the target but the seeker has problems to distinguish the contrast at such a large distance, which is why he can hardly or no longer Lock the target from 5nm, thanks for that.

but I would still say that you can shoot at a helicopter within 5nm if the contrast is high enough for the missle and that the targets do not exceed the kinematic limits for an immobile maverick

 

 

 

Zitat

Tracking moving targets:
As of now the RB75 - the earliest maverick - is superior to all the later mavericks because it appears to use a different logic in the game to the others. Here are the values I believe that the maximum speeds (in knots?) mavericks can lock targets in-game (mav A & B are recent additions in the latest patch):

RB75: 128
Mav A: 28
Mav B: 33

the thing here is, why are there speed gates?
if the target is within 5nm(or depending on the size of the helicopter 3-4nm for small and 5-6nm for large) even the older misses should be able to lock a helicopter, how does an IR/TV seeker know how fast the helicopter flying directly towards you is ?
it only sees a contrast that hardly moves.

Edited April 13, 2024 by Hobel

[PinkCube]

Just now, Hobel said:

the thing here is, why are there speed gates?

I believe this is a very basic way of simulating losing track from clutter a target moves around (applies regardless of actual clutter).

Here is another document that offers more insight into maverick launches on tanks and buildings (in a test environment?).
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA361645.pdf

It's interesting to note that the AGM-65B was fired at slant ranges of up 1.5miles maximum. It does not say what the limitations of why they had to be so close during the tests. I can only speculate and assume there was a technological limitation which would be supported by the illustrations in my previous post.

[Hobel]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb PinkCube:

I believe this is a very basic way of simulating losing track from clutter a target moves around (applies regardless of actual clutter).

that's basically my point i would be in favor of a different method because that way, you can't shoot at helicopters in DCS no matter how optimal the conditions would be and the seeker can Lock this target, here i would be more in favor of a relative dynamic distance limit than a hard Line,because you can currently Track and shoot at tanks at 15-20nm with these old Mavs.

with the other things i agree with you about and thank you for the interesting documents!

Edited April 13, 2024 by Hobel