OK - MY thoughts on the v1.1 Copy Protection

[britgliderpilot]

There is a shedload of hysteria, very few facts, and a lot of people saying "OMF WTF LOL nt guna by 1.1!!111!!!one!"

 

 

There are people complaining about things that haven't been verified as fact, which is just dumb.

 

There are people complaining that ED hasn't commented. Well I went to work for five hours and came back to find that the forum has turned into complete hysteria. Five hours. Ya think ED have nothing better to do right now?

 

 

Everyone - calm the hell down, wait for the facts, and make an INFORMED decision. The vast majority of you are latching on to rumours and incorrect facts from unsubstantiated posts, NOT official statements.

 

 

I tell you this, though - I'm buying v1.1 anyway. I'll deal with problems as they come, through firewalls and virus software. If it turns out I need to buy again after a new upgrade, well . . . . I feel now is a good time to make a point.

 

 

IF YOU JUST SPENT HUNDREDs OF EUROS/POUNDS/DOLLARS ON A NEW RIG, WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT $35? REALLY?

 

If it means that ED's game is less piratable, I will continue to not care until a virus kills all the coursework on my system. Now . . . . something like that has never happened. Not to me, not to anyone I know. And I continue to believe that this software brings no more serious risk to your PC than browsing the internet and using email every day.

 

If you're unprotected, you're unprotected. If you're protected, you're safer, but not safe. If a new virus comes out and hammers you before your protection gets updated, you're hammered anyway.

 

 

 

Get over the hysteria and start thinking rationally.

[Nomad]

Completely agree. 100%.

[coldcrew]

ED should speak up. The FUD is spreading and it's not good news for sales. Just come out and say what the protection will be because some of the FUD will just hurt sales

[Jarhead]

ill tell you why britgliderpilot. upon noticing after i installed the demo viewing internet pages was getting slow so i proceeded to scan with some spyware tools. then i started reading about starforce and how it installs with the demo. first of all, why would you need copy protection on a freaking demo and second, they dont even tell you it installs! i have followed many of your posts britgliderpilot and the funny thing is you have never once said anything bad or critisized any part of Eagle Dynamics it makes me laugh every time.

[VapoR]

Re: OK - MY thoughts on the v1.1 Copy Protection

 

"OMF WTF LOL nt guna by 1.1!!111!!!one!"

 

Brit, you crack me up everytime you do the !!!11!!one!! thing!!

 

You make some very good points. I don't really mind buying again after my 3 activations are up, it will give ED more to use for future expansions/new product. I have been playing Lomac since it came out, and I only had to pay $39 for it--I feel I have gotten more than my moneys worth . . .

 

But again, the security issue is still up in the air. I use AV and firewalls, yet I still get spyware and today even a trojan dialer (maybe caused by Starforce, but no way to tell for sure). So, these things will happen regardless of whether or not Starforce has a backdoor.

[Guest ruggbutt]

I suppose you don't have a problem w/spyware being installed on your rig then? This is third party software that to date has been installed on my rig in a free demo. What possible reason is there to install this? Couple that w/the fact that one version of the software has been found to open a backdoor to consumers' computers. Which version is it? God forbid it's the malicious one. And exactly what in the free demo needed to be copy protected?

 

I have a problem with any company installing shiat on my rig w/out my permission. I'm the guy who doesn't just blindly install windows updates. I don't use IE (Firefox). I have two sypware programs that I run every morning. I have badass antivirus protection. I run a firewall (not the Windows crap). I spent alot of time working around the malicious crap that can end up on my rig, the last thing I expected was ED to allow drivers to be installed. Scuze me?!!! I choose what drivers go on my system. Have these been tested to guarantee that they don't interfere w/other drivers on your system?

[Trident]

I agree for the most part (except the finacial aspect, to be exact ;) ). However there are a lot of people who won't snap out of it no matter what you do - and those same people have a sizeable percentage of the money that ED needs to survive. Word of mouth and the inevitable skewing of reality in the process only complicate the situation.

 

Like it or not, sometimes it's not reality that matters, but how people perceive it. I've seen it time and again on a small scale (everyday conversations and interaction between individuals) and in fields like politics. I know plenty of people for whom things like this (be it out of sheer inconvenience) would indeed make the difference between a purchase and not buying it.

 

ED needs to look at this closely prior to deciding whether to proceed, and most importantly communicate before things get out of hand.

 

Yeah, and the demo admittedly also has me puzzled. I've not noticed any ill effects from it though.

[schimmel]

Re: OK - MY thoughts on the v1.1 Copy Protection

 

and start thinking rationally.

 

Why open a new thread if there's already one with the very same topic? :roll:

[Guest ruggbutt]

The other thing to remember is that you have no recourse should Starcrap fuxor your system. Who you gonna sue? ED? Not. Starcrap? Not. And no phone number to contact them? Hmm, I rented our dedicated server and the major item that helped me choose was the fact that I could talk (and bitch) to a human being on the other end of the line.

 

I have no probs doing business w/ED. All I've heard is bad about Starcrap.

[Jarhead]

Just talked to about 6 other people and they are experiencing slowdowns on page load time ever since they installed 1.1 Demo.

[britgliderpilot]

The other thing to remember is that you have no recourse should Starcrap fuxor your system. Who you gonna sue? ED? Not. Starcrap? Not. And no phone number to contact them? Hmm, I rented our dedicated server and the major item that helped me choose was the fact that I could talk (and bitch) to a human being on the other end of the line.

 

I have no probs doing business w/ED. All I've heard is bad about Starcrap.

 

Neither do I have any recourse if any other virus, spyware, or malware fuxxors my system. Just a thought.

 

 

I certainly don't have proof that this version of Starforce is going to be malware, spyware, or trojans. Remember, HyperLobby is considered by some to be a trojan . . . . . ever been to HL?

 

The actual facts about the version of Starforce we're going to get aren't out in the open yet. Previous versions have had security holes and implementation flaws . . . . well whoo, damn, it's a piece of software, I'm so surprised.

 

What is going on right now is uninformed hysteria based on information that may or may not be relevant or even accurate. It MIGHT be accurate . . . . . but it's just as possible that the version of Starforce ED will eventually use will be fixed.

 

 

All I'm truly suggesting about the security issues in Starforce is that we WAIT and see what the real situation is before going off. Be concerned about the possibilities, yes, by all means. But to start a hysterical rant against ED at this point in time just doesn't make sense.

 

 

 

Schimmel - there's seven pages of hysteria. What I wanted to do was ask people to wake up and think rationally before becoming hysterical. A new thread's a better way to do that than posting on page seven of an old one :wink:

[169th_Cobra]

i hear what your saying BGP and agree with most of it.

 

I think the problem is that the western market is made up of mostly very loyal users and quite a few fanactics of the genre. All they seem to have done is piss this bunch of people off who would have been buying the addon regardless.

 

On the addon note ... it is just that. An addon. You will need a copy of the original game to play Flaming Cliffs. I dont see any copies of Lock-on on the shelves here in Australia. So who are they aiming this copy protection at?

 

It has been brought up in other threads as to why IL2 is more popular than Lock-on and one of the main points is its complexity. How many new users do they think they are going to attract with this addon?

 

I was definately going to buy this addon but now im not so sure. Its not only about the security issue, its about the fact that i get limited upgrades before i have to jump on the net and get a new key. Although it could be fairly straight forwardin practice, how many of us have had experience with similar products only to have major problems with them. As someone else mentioned i will want to load this up years down the track and not have any outside forces prevent me.

 

I sincerely hope ED reconsider this option as they may just lose a very loyal customer. (i say MAY as im not about to make idol threats based on hearsay.)

[Jarhead]

britgliderpilot, honestly i dont care about the next versions of starforce. the version that was installed with the DEMO poses a threat. i see you didnt mention anything about that in your post.

[earlybird]

All I'm truly suggesting about the security issues in Starforce is that we WAIT and see what the real situation is before going off. Be concerned about the possibilities, yes, by all means. But to start a hysterical rant against ED at this point in time just doesn't make sense.

Some of the annoyance is undoubtedly due to the fact that it has been put on our systems NOW.

[Guest ruggbutt]

I'm just irked about something being installed w/out my permission. I also want to know if it will leave my system vulnerable.

 

I'd like to hear from ED on this.

[PnHobbit]

britgliderpilot, honestly i dont care about the next versions of starforce. the version that was installed with the DEMO poses a threat. i see you didnt mention anything about that in your post.

 

I think you are BSing just to cause a ruckus. My bet is that you slowed it down visiting your porn sites or you have a poor ISP. Stop blaming crap on other's and stop making things up.

 

My system runs just fine since I installed the 1.1 demo. I still run everything on max settings. I downloaded a file at 1.5mb/s off of fileplanet last night. It was the 1.6gb EQ demo and I dloaded it in 10 minutes. My internet hasn't slowed. My system performance hasn't lagged. I've not experienced anyone hacking my system. We are all running the same "horror story" you make Starforce out to be, yet I'm experiencing none of this. Maybe you just aren't telling the truth, or not just maybe. You aren't.

[Guest ruggbutt]

We are all running the same "horror story" you make Starforce out to be, yet I'm experiencing none of this. Maybe you just aren't telling the truth, or not just maybe. You aren't.

 

Yes, best call someone a liar when you have zero info on whether or not you are full of it.

 

Howbout this smart guy, I have 1.x and 2.x versions of Starforce installed on my rig. The 1.x version is vulnerable, allegedly.

[britgliderpilot]

OK - installing a piece of software with holes in it as part of a free demo, without informing people, is a bad idea. No query.

 

 

If you don't know about it, it doesn't hurt you and you might just get a virus - which as we all know is a possibility anyway.

 

 

Since we know about it . . . . . I quote from the other thread:

 

ringSquad: Uninstalling games that use StarForce, such as TOCA Race Driver 2, Broken Sword 3 and Silent Storm apparently doesn't remove StarForce. Was this simply an oversight by game publishers/developers, or a necessary part of the copy protection process?

 

Abbie Sommer: The fact that they remain was something that no one predicted would be such a contentious issue. Going forward, we are encouraging all publishers to include the SFdriver cleaner utility into their un-install scripts. There are a tremendous amount of residual files that get loaded onto on a system without our knowledge when we load a program, be it a game, a movie or music player, video or sound card drivers etc. Far more than the average person realizes. Now that we hear the dissatisfaction about it, we have taken steps to fix it, the publishers are too. We also have the tools posted on our website for anyone to download. http://www.star-force.com/index.phtml?category=200&type=5 BTW, we are not the only CP provider who loads drivers; it is a common part of several protections.

 

As for http://www.star-force.com/index.phtml?category=200&type=5

 

End Users How to update or uninstall StarForce drivers

Why are drivers installed on my PC?

Some versions of StarForce Copy Protection will install dedicated drivers on your PC. Those drivers are necessary for the StarForce specific CD/DVD checking procedure, only. They do not include any hidden functionality. The drivers are active only at execution of the protected application. StarForce constantly improves their drivers to keep them compatible with the latest versions of Windows operating systems.

How to update StarForce Drivers:

Updating StarForce drivers can improve protected applications performance and drivers compatibility. The following procedure will update the StarForce drivers on your system.

1. Download the SFUPDATE tool as a ZIP archive.

2. Extract and store sfdrvup.exe anywhere on your hard disk.

3. Run sfdrvup.exe.

How to remove all StarForce components from your PC:

Sometimes the un-installation utility of the protected application does not uninstall all StarForce drivers. The following procedure will ensure that all StarForce related components are completely removed from your system.

1. Download the SFREMOVE tool as a ZIP archive.

2. Extract and store sfdrvrem.exe anywhere on your hard disk.

3. Run sfdrvrem.exe.

If the protected application requires a StarForce driver, this driver will be re-installed as soon as you launch the application again. For further help, please contact the helpdesk of the application publisher.

Note that all cases of unauthorized distribution of StarForce Removal Tool (sfdrvrem.exe) itself, be it .EXE file or the utility archive (.ZIP, .RAR, etc.), are considered as infringement of the copyright. For authorization, please contact StarForce at sales@star-force.com.

NEW! Drivers vulnerability issue clarification

 

End Users

The old version of StarForce drivers did indeed allow executing code using Administrator rights for its purposes. We would like to clarify some points. What we see here is that drivers may be accessed by any application. This application gets Administrator privileges and is not hampered by OS security as it would have been if being run with normal or low rights. This issue has happened before with some companies, and it was never a "critical" security matter (see http://computercops.biz/article2661.html for details).

It is well-known that the overwhelming majority of home users work under Administrator accounts all the time, thus this driver vulnerability does not affect them at all, as any application run will work with Administrator rights by default. This is significant only for business workstations working with common User rights. Going further we see that there are no complex StarForce protected games on business workstations, therefore this problem is valid only for office computers that have business applications protected with StarForce using the drivers (yet most of the time business applications are protected without drivers).

If you work in User-mode most of the time and wish to fix this vulnerability in StarForce drivers, you should do the following:

1) Run sfclean utility (http://www.star-force.com/index.phtml?category=200&type=5) to remove old drivers. (You may also use this utility in order to remove old StarForce drivers that are no longer needed)

2) Download and install the software patch that fixes this vulnerability from the software publisher. The publishers are informed of this issue and can create a patch.

P.S. StarForce would like to thank the hardworking team and their financial backers who have found this driver vulnerability. If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't be in business.

 

Bad move, IF a problematic Starforce install is included with the demo.

 

But if you're worried, now go fix it. ED may have made a mistake, and if so then they're certainly not the first software company to have done so.

 

 

 

Cobra -

 

Downloads of Flanker 2.5 (free expansion to Flanker 2.0) eclipsed original sales of Flanker 2.0 CD's. Where do you think the additional copies went?

 

People can, and do, pirate Lomac. That will continue to happen, and does indeed bring up the possibility that they will be able play Flaming Cliffs without having paid for Lomac.

 

 

Re fast jets sims and Il2 . . . . . fast jet sims are by their nature more complex. I don't think that inherent complexity is what causes the relatively poor sales of Lomac . . . . other aspects of the sim are responsible for that.

 

Droves of new users probably won't come with v1.1, true. But that was never going to happen . . . . we just have to face that. Our community won't grow properly until they get it right . . . . until then, lets just enjoy what we have. I'm hopeful for the "next project".

[PnHobbit]

We are all running the same "horror story" you make Starforce out to be, yet I'm experiencing none of this. Maybe you just aren't telling the truth, or not just maybe. You aren't.

 

Yes, best call someone a liar when you have zero info on whether or not you are full of it.

 

Howbout this smart guy, I have 1.x and 2.x versions of Starforce installed on my rig. The 1.x version is vulnerable, allegedly.

 

zero information, besides the fact that I'm running the software and have no problems and never had despite previous games such as colin mcrae that run the same software?

[SilentEagle]

britgliderpilot, honestly i dont care about the next versions of starforce. the version that was installed with the DEMO poses a threat. i see you didnt mention anything about that in your post.

 

I think you are BSing just to cause a ruckus. My bet is that you slowed it down visiting your porn sites or you have a poor ISP. Stop blaming crap on other's and stop making things up.

 

My system runs just fine since I installed the 1.1 demo. I still run everything on max settings. I downloaded a file at 1.5mb/s off of fileplanet last night. It was the 1.6gb EQ demo and I dloaded it in 10 minutes. My internet hasn't slowed. My system performance hasn't lagged. I've not experienced anyone hacking my system. We are all running the same "horror story" you make Starforce out to be, yet I'm experiencing none of this. Maybe you just aren't telling the truth, or not just maybe. You aren't.

 

Why don't you get a clue! If you had any sense at all to even ask others what they have had go wrong with their internet/computer in the days since the demo was released...then you would realize that somethign was allowing spyware/adware/trojans/viruses or whatever to enter the computers...

 

I and several other people i know have been having severe internet problems (esp. web page loading times) since installing this demo. I have also found several spyware and adware files on my comp since installing this demo, which I had not seen since i first reformatted my computer before i got my antivirus and spyware blocker working.

 

So, to say you aren't seeing anything wrong with your computer is not a way to justify that you are right and he is a liar! PERIOD

[Guest ruggbutt]

besides the fact that I'm running the software and have no problems and never had despite previous games such as colin mcrae that run the same software?

 

I never had problems w/the copy protection interfering w/my CD/DVD drives but other have. Just because you aren't having problems don't mean they don't exist. You're quite the egocentric.

[britgliderpilot]

So, to say you aren't seeing anything wrong with your computer is not a way to justify that you are right and he is a liar! PERIOD

 

Fact.

 

 

The fact that software has a security flaw doesn't mean that it will instantly cause a problem - it just means that it has the potential to do so. It might not happen immediately, it might not happen for a year, it might not happen at all . . . . but a security flaw will increase the risk of a problem coming in.

 

 

Hobbit, Starforce admit that early versions of their software had some security flaws. If the demo versions don't personally worry you, then that's fine and your own conscience. But it doesn't mean that Starforce didn't have it's own problems, and it certainly doesn't mean that all users will be problem-free.

 

 

I am a great believer in the placebo effect, especially around online communities like this . . . . but there are some legitimate concerns about early versions of Starforce.

 

However, I absolutely reject the idea that these should cause us to go crazy and refuse to have anything to do with ED ever again :wink:

[Starlight]

The first bad thing is that this 3rd party software was installed without any notice. And this should NOT be done. It's a silly and shameful behaviour by ED. It was a freely downloadable demo and no one thought it was copy protected. And no one thought a 3rd party software was to be installed. People at ED cannot think that their customers are fully respectful towards them, while they can cheat their customers. This is what they've done, brit, and this is the point you really missed in your post.

 

The second bad thing is that LockOn doesn't have that huge number of players to justify such complex (yet flawed) copy protection systems. There are a bunch of players who will buy the western version. Trust em and they will buy it. Or change the distribution method. Only CD sent by mail, with cd verifier, and that's all.

This in turn makes me think another issue: ED is always complaining about the lack of funds which prevents them to develop another flyable or other new features. Why invest more money on the copy protection instead of investing it in new developments? In my opinion new features equal to new buyers. New copy protection equals less buyers. That's my equation, at least for a sim like this, which is bought just by fans.

 

Then ok, 35 USD are not really much today, but keep in mind you have to download a huge amount of data, from a website which has already shown that it cannot withstand a massive 200 Mb download. With 35 USD you don't get any cd, nor printed manual and not even any box. And, LO:FC it's mainly a patch... most sims get patches for free. Many people bought LockOn because they saw on Ubi website that it had a dynamic campaign... they're still waiting it, and they won't get it even with this PAID patch!

 

Another thing is that this copy protection seems flawed and also seem not really user friendly. Today I can install Falcon 4, Gunship and any other game, even if I changed my hardware config 20 times since I bought them. Will I be able to say this of LO:FC in the next years??? Suppose FC gets this "copy protection", after a while ED or starforce go bankrupt.... and FC doesn't recognize my key anymore because I'd have changed my config 4 times.... what will I do then?

 

And, really the last this one, if one player buys a $ 2,000 rig, with a $ 50 antivirus, why should he spoil all of this for a game patch paid $ 35???? It just makes no sense!

 

I (like other people I think) am not here to attack ED or to promote any boycott againts ED. I'm just here to say ok, we can spend $ 35 for a patch, we can support ED, but ED please don't cheat us. And I'd also say that this issue of the copy protection imho is getting many users away from this already poorly supported game.

I've always said that LockOn is a great product and it has an even greater potential. But the behaviour of ED towards its fans is getting worse every day. They depend on their community, yet they listen to less than 1/100 of their issues/requests. Their only strong point is that the last good military jet sim is many years old now, and that no one seem to surface in the close future.

 

 

- A disappointed LockOn player who just discovered a flawed 3rd party software installed without notice with the demo of a "patch" which will cost 35$ USD and that it's already four months late on its schedule.

[britgliderpilot]

The first bad thing is that this 3rd party software was installed without any notice. And this should NOT be done. It's a silly and shameful behaviour by ED. It was a freely downloadable demo and no one thought it was copy protected. And no one thought a 3rd party software was to be installed. People at ED cannot think that their customers are fully respectful towards them, while they can cheat their customers. This is what they've done, brit, and this is the point you really missed in your post.

 

I agree that providing flawed software as part as a demo is a bad move.

 

I don't believe ED knew it was flawed, and I don't think we should hammer on them for trying to test their copy-protection systems.

 

I don't believe anyone would be hammering ED like this if their copy-protection they were testing was hole-free. Certainly nobody would be saying they were being cheated.

 

 

So they made a mistake. Too bad. I don't think it's worth missing out on v1.1 for - definitely not if they use the fixed version of Starforce for v1.1.

 

 

 

Patch/addon has been hammered to death. It's an addon, not a patch. Improvements, not bugfixes. You wanted a free patch, then take it up with Ubi, not ED.

 

Dates have been hammered to death. No set date was ever given. Ideal aiming points were given. Since when has a game ever met it's release date?

 

I have it on good authority that ED will use mirrors for final v1.1 release - also that the big problems with their downloads were software related, and they've woken up and fixed them.

 

 

I'm getting tired of crusading, I'm going to bed soon . . . . but I still say people are hammering on ED a lot more than they deserve right now.

[Trident]

I've taken the time to read the interview that contains the comments about the security issue which are quoted in this thread. Believe me, all here should take a deep breath and read it *completely* through. Just about all the valid and invalid points that are being brought up in here are covered. This includes the perculiar question of why the demo was protected, for example.

 

http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview/default.asp

 

I must say that I'm feeling alot better about Starforce than before. Also please note that the article is now 6 months old, so it's very probable that the backdoor is a non-issue with the demo today (nevertheless, a statement from ED would of course still be appropriate).

 

As for trouble being caused such as internet slowdowns, this may be due to any number of reasons and thus hardly constitutes incriminating evidence. For example, I recently did experience connection problems, but can still confidently say (as I did earlier in the thread) that the demo is not to blame - I know for FACT that they were caused by my ISP! I encourage anyone to take a good hard look at such issues and make a honest assesment.

 

All I personally need to know now is whether I may be required to re-purchase FC due to whatever reasons - that's something I'd certainly not accept.