Force feedback silly question

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Minimum pitch forces 100 - maximum 0? There’s your problem I’d say

 

For the most authentic experience it seems it’s best to use the recommended settings:

Pitch: max 100 - min 10.

Roll: max 50 - min 5.

It's what the in-game tooltip says, if I remember correctly. And for me that works really well!

[Smollet]

В 15.11.2024 в 11:55, Raven (Elysian Angel) сказал:

Minimum pitch forces 100 - maximum 0? There’s your problem I’d say

 

For the most authentic experience it seems it’s best to use the recommended settings:

Pitch: max 100 - min 10.

Roll: max 50 - min 5.

It's what the in-game tooltip says, if I remember correctly. And for me that works really well!

The problem is absolutely not in this.
I experimented with these settings for a long time and I came to the following conclusion:
The minimum and maximum force settings set the force gradient (curve) for the joystick axis. This may be necessary for weak FFB joysticks. But on a powerful joystick it feels strange. In the center, the handle is too soft. Then, when deflecting, the force increases quickly.
With my version of the settings, the force on the handle increases proportionally to the deflection.

The manual for the module has a description of this setting, but in my opinion it is not clear enough (see screenshot). The manual does not prohibit my version of the settings, but only describes that the forces will be the same (in my understanding, this is a linear increase in force).

In order to make sure that the problem is not in this setting, I tried the recommended settings again. As I wrote above, the forces became non-linear, but the jerks when moving did not disappear. In my opinion, they even became a little more noticeable.

 

Perhaps the problem lies somewhere in the FFB protocol itself and it concerns all DCS aircraft that implement joystick travel limitation. I heard that the F-5E Tiger exhibits similar behavior when limiting the roll travel.
There, an imitation of a hard limitation of the stick's roll travel is implemented. And they say that when this stop is reached on the FFB, the same jerks are felt that push the stick away.
That is, if the damping mechanism in the Mirage F1 is implemented as if it were a stop that moves behind the joystick but has a limitation on the speed of displacement, then it is probably this stop that creates jerks.
I do not have an F-5E Tiger, but I will take it for a trial period to see how it works there.

Edited November 18, 2024 by Smollet

[MAXsenna]

26 minutes ago, Smollet said:

I heard that the F-5E Tiger exhibits similar behavior when limiting the roll travel.
There, an imitation of a hard limitation of the stick's roll travel is implemented. And they say that when this stop is reached on the FFB, the same jerks are felt that push the stick away.

This is incorrect, you might have misunderstood. It does not limit the roll travel, nor has a hard limit. It simulates the "limiter", which you can push through like in the real aircraft. No "jerk", it's just harder to move the stick in that "zone". It's shown in the Controls Indicator, and can easily be felt. Of course the force you need to apply to push through will depend on the force of your FFB base. 

In the F-5 one also have the option to shift the position to a realistic forward position. So the travel forward is less than backwards. I wish every module where this is realistic, would have this option. 

Cheers! 

Edited November 18, 2024 by MAXsenna

[Smollet]

Yes, in the real F5 there is no strict limitation of the stick on the roll. It uses spring stops that the pilot can overcome.

I tried the F5 Tiger in the DCS.
As I wrote above - in the F5 in the FFB implementation, when the stick reaches this spring stop, there are similar pushes to the hand with the same frequency (about 2 times per second).

What I noticed: there are pushes to the hand only when the joystick reaches the position at which it touches the stop. As soon as I press this position - then the joystick moves with great effort and without pushes (as it should be).

I got the feeling that the FFB protocol has a function that causes a jerk to enhance the feeling of reaching the stop with the joystick. I think this could have been done specifically for joysticks like MSFFB so that the player could better feel the moment when the joystick reached the stop. At that time, there were no FFB joysticks with more power, it seems.
On a strong joystick, this moment, when creating a certain force, leads to constant oscillations. The joystick is pushed back, you continue to press on the roll, again reach the stop, the joystick is pushed back again.
If you apply significant force, then this moment is not noticeable, since you overcome the repulsion force and get into the zone behind the stop, where this effect is no longer created.

[Smollet]

On F1 (not the real one, but in the FFB implementation) it seems that the same spring stop is used to implement the joystick damping. Only we move this stop with our joystick (not squeeze it, but move it. We move its limiting position). And the speed of movement of this stop is limited.
If we exceed the limitation of the stop displacement speed, we feel increased resistance.
This is how the damping effect is achieved (limiting the speed of the joystick shifting).

In F1, I feel jolts only when I move the joystick at approximately the speed of this damping. If I apply more force and exceed the damping speed, there will be no jolts.

The jolts are definitely weaker than in F5, they do not lead to problems in piloting, but they are felt by the hand and this breaks the immersion.

I do not claim that this is the reason. Perhaps something else. I'm just sharing my thoughts. Maybe it will help the developers in investigating the problem.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Smollet

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, Smollet said:

I think this could have been done specifically for joysticks like MSFFB so that the player could better feel the moment when the joystick reached the stop. At that time, there were no FFB joysticks with more power, it seems.

I see what you mean now. You're probably correct.

[fausete]

Hi, I'm afraid that's incorrect in the case of the F1. In the F1, to model hydraulic resistance (and dashpot in pitch), the force is increased with displacement speed. In the case of some FFBs speeds and 'unusual' Special Options configs like yours, this causes the oscillations as the 'dampening' effect is excessive in comparison to the other forces.

Just as a test, if you increase the Max stick force to 100, you should see the oscillations completely disappear.

It's difficult to achieve a FFB simulation that works for all systems and configs, thus why we opted for allowing the maximum customisation possible. I think to solve this issue, we will add an option that regulates the hydraulic resistance magnitude.

Best regards and thanks for the tests (and please test the different config and report back),

fausete

[Smollet]

17 часов назад, fausete сказал:

Hi, I'm afraid that's incorrect in the case of the F1. In the F1, to model hydraulic resistance (and dashpot in pitch), the force is increased with displacement speed. In the case of some FFBs speeds and 'unusual' Special Options configs like yours, this causes the oscillations as the 'dampening' effect is excessive in comparison to the other forces.

Just as a test, if you increase the Max stick force to 100, you should see the oscillations completely disappear.

It's difficult to achieve a FFB simulation that works for all systems and configs, thus why we opted for allowing the maximum customisation possible. I think to solve this issue, we will add an option that regulates the hydraulic resistance magnitude.

Best regards and thanks for the tests (and please test the different config and report back),

fausete

Thanks for the answer. I tried to experiment with the settings as you suggested:

In the special settings, I set the minimum and maximum forces to 100% for roll and pitch.
The jolts in the hand disappeared.

I set the minimum and maximum forces to 50% for roll. I did not change the other settings.
The jolts in the hand appeared both on roll and pitch.

This seemed strange to me.