Orion 2 F18 base/stick disconnects randomly!

[Evocati443]

i am not sure how helpful this is going to be. But i searched the forum and reddit, apparently there are quite a few users with Orion 1/2 with this exact same issue where the stick disconnects randomly during mid play. And it doesn't seem like Winwing's support offers any replacement even for products within warranty. i created an account here asking everyone for help as a last resort, as well as opening up a ticket with Winwing. 

I started really getting into DCS, and finally decided to spend a bit more on a HOTAS setup that's better than the X52 that i was using. I was attracted by the Winwing F18 setup and saw a couple Youtuber reviews from some of the same folks that put out DCS F18 tutorial videos. I wish i had done more research, especially after reading many of Winwing's post sales complaints here on the forum and on Reddit. but that's on me. 

i purchased the setup only a few weeks ago and arrived about two weeks prio. So far Winwin has responded asking me to disconnect the grip from the base and see if the connection cuts out without the grip. I tried it, even tho that's not really helpful. Because the problem is so random and only occurs once a day after hours of play. Without literately sitting there for hours, i tried to sit there for as long as i could without the grip and just the base plugged in and nothing happened. so i started playing DCS again normally and it happened again. pancaked to the ground as usual when the joystick cut out. the interesting thing to note is, when it happens, i don't get any windows disconnect chime in the background, nor any disconnect message in game like if you unplugg a hotas. i literally just lose all flight control on the joystick and all button on the joystick. throttle works fine tho. so it doesn't seem like a USB connection issue from my best educated guess of process of elimination.

i tried many of the suggestions that i found on Reddit and here on the forum, including plugging directly to the back of my Asrock X57 Taichi motherboard without any splitters, the ports are all USB 3.1 and should support 2~3 Amp at 5V. But i highly doubt it's the power, since the throttle which has more LED lighting works just fine. tried opening up the base like others suggested and reseating the two black wires from USB PCB but still doesn't seem to solve the problem. Another user on Reddit with Orion 1 found that his base sensor was lose and was then able to resolve his disconnect issue by tightening the sensor that's attached to the bottom of the base. But i believe the Orion 2 sensor is inside the base, not easily accessible at the bottom like the Orion 1. can someone confirm what the sensor looks like on the Orion 2 and where it's located? is it the small green PCB that's in the center of the base sandwiched between the two Cam/springs with a small black wire leading to the main USB/processor PCB?

at this point i am not optimistic that Winwing will replace the product consider all the similar horror stories i heard. Which makes no sense for an expensive low volume toy like this. For something that's low volume and expensive, unlike an android cell phone or cell phone accessary, the success of the business really hinges on post-sales support and guarantee. I was overjoyed when i first received this HOTAS two weeks ago when i started using it, i was even planning on purchasing a MIP/DDI setup, but they might have just lost all my future business. 

sorry for the long 1st post. But i am hoping that someone can confirm the sensor location and what it looks like, and any other ideas on how to get this thing working normal. I am really not looking forward to taking a hammer to this thing and trying to take everything apart like the other users had to go through. Even though i can well take a car apart myself and very technically and mechanically inclined. But my job is extremely stressful and busy, and this just shouldn't have to be something that a customer have to go through on their own. 

my very best

Edited May 3, 2023 by Evocati443

[Evocati443]

Update: Winwing had me run around opening up the entire grip and base to unplug all the wires. at first they sent me a document which included the F16, not the F18 that i have, so the internal direction were completely unapplicable. Luckily, being mechanically inclined, so still managed to unplug every wires inside the grip and the base.

The file picture they sent me is the one with green oval circle (F16), but the F18 grip i have is much more complex. 

the wires inside the grip were all glued to the sockets, but i noticed the wires inside the base were not. I was hoping that this would do the trick. but after hours of testing today, the problem still persist. 

I managed to capture a recording while this was happening. the recording started about 5 seconds into the disconnect. i paused my game and started recording SimAppPro. you can see that strangely, during the disconnect, the grip and the base were not being recognized at all. the axis would stuck where it was last and would not respond to any input. about 20 or so seconds after the disconnect, the stick came back to life. 

At this point i am asking them to just send me a replacement. This is obviously a faulty product and requires a functional replacement unit. 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Evocati443

[Evocati443]

A quick update to the forum. Winwing denied my request to send a replacement. they wanted me to cooperate with them by jumping on a call, which makes no sense. The disconnect problem is random, and when it happens, only lasts 20 seconds. So i am supposed to sit there and wait for it to happen and get on a call with them across a 13 hour time zone difference, so that they can tell me that everything looks fine? Not to mention that while all this is happening, they even tried to sell me more of their product by offering me a discount on their TOP GUN MIP/DDI setup. They said if i cooperate with them, they'll offer me a discount on the Top Gun DDI. I still have yet received a working product and they were already trying to sell me another. They said that i can send the product back for a refund but i have to pay for the shipping, at the current rate of shipping back to China, they must be crazy. This is just not the way to do business. i am frankly baffled by their logic. for a low volume expensive toy like this, it really all hinges on post sales service and warranty. How are they going to grow their business if they have no practical intention of honoring their warranty. The warranty claim may as well just be a sticker on their website. 

I made it clear to them that i am done trying to fix their product for them. it's not my job. They can send me a shipping label and they can have this faulty product back. Otherwise, i am moving on by filing a claim with my CC company. hopefully i can get some money back and move onto something else. The amount of time and attention i've spent on trying to fix their product for them is already costing me money. 

I think i might just buy a Thrustmaster Warhog F18 setup. sure it isn't a mechanical spring underneath, but i am pretty damn sure that Thrustmaster will have a better quality control and they're located here in Oregon, US. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Evocati443

[Lekaa]

i've had the same issue, i think activating hot plug in the control settings will help, but it have happened to me at least 10 times, all random, quick fix was to unplugg the wire to the base and replug it back again. Orion 2 base with F16 handgrip 

[mmike87]

I am currently working with their customer support on a similar issue. I experienced random disconnects and also some random button presses while playing DCS. I noticed in SimAppPro that while very slightly moving the stick, the "shake kit pendant" (That's what they call it) would appear and the disappear from the display in the application. Also, button number two which is on the axis for the trigger that comes on the shake unit would intermittently go on and off while very slightly moving the stick. 

I remove the shake kit, and all the problems went away. Regardless, I disassembled the unit and reseated it all the plugs, multiple times. I thought the main DIN plug was the culprit, given that the shake unit would malfunction only when slightly moving the stick. However, with the shake unit removed I have no problems with the unit whatsoever. So, I'm not sure if the problem is with the shake kit or the stick itself. My bet is on the shake kit. Even with the shake kit un-bolted from the joystick but plugged in, I can wiggle the connectors on the shake kit all day long and as long as I don't move the stick, the shake kit doesn't malfunction. I'm not sure how this thing is wired up, but it seems odd and is certainly resistant to typical troubleshooting techniques.

I'm hoping they will send me another shake kit, but at this point I'm not going to hold my breath. I've been going back and forth with them all week.

Edited May 20, 2023 by mmike87

[mmike87]

Update on my instance of this issue - Winwing sent me the same two replacement wires that they seem to send everyone else. Given that my Shake Kit disconnected and randomly pressed its buttons with the SLIGHTEST move of the joystick, I had serious doubts this was going to help, but I replaced the two wires nonetheless.

And, you guessed it - not fixed!

I let them know. I don't think this is a mechanical connection issue. Maybe some sort of voltage drop or something under some circumstances. And, the last couple of days I have been playing DCS more, and even with the shake kit disconnected, now I have had a couple of disconnects. 

If they don't get this fixed, I'll try and dispute the charge - no way I am sending a defective product back to China at my expense. They have my address - they can come get me. 

[mmike87]

I followed their instructions and removed the handle from the base, and I was able to fly around in DCS with no handle, just moving the base for about 15 minutes, trouble-free. Obviously, this is not a solution, but I think it identifies the handle as the issue, more than likely. Earlier, I had multiple, back-to-back disconnects fly flying and it made the mission unplayable. It's getting worse - it originally seemed tied to the shake kit being installed, but now does it continuously. It does seem to start after it's been plugged in for a bit. 

I told them they need to send me a new stick and a return label for the old one or I'll dispute the CC charge. They have sent me wires and asked for videos, logs, etc. I have opened the darn thing up multiple times, swapped our parts, bought a new cable, and tried it directly connected to the PC MB USB and via a powered hub, the fact is their product is defective and I will either get a new one or a refund, one way or the other. They seem to just try and exhaust people with endless troubleshooting. Not going to work. This thing was not cheap, and let's face it - it's a JOYSTICK it's not something that is going to be highlighted on an episode of "Modern Marvels". 

[Apone]

On 5/4/2023 at 2:37 PM, Evocati443 said:

 

I think i might just buy a Thrustmaster Warhog F18 setup. sure it isn't a mechanical spring underneath, but i am pretty damn sure that Thrustmaster will have a better quality control and they're located here in Oregon, US. 

 

I have the thrustmaster as well as Winwing Orion2.  The quality has been fantastic on the TM, really feels like you could fight a bear with the thing and no functional issues.  However, it was very difficult to fly precisely because of the force required and spring rate.  Made everything in the sim more stressful.  The WW has more buttons to map to which was huge and was much easier to fly as far as the stick.  I think the TM throttle was great and the only 2 things better on the WW is the push through afterburner detent and the additional buttons.  I think you can mod TM for push through.

So what would I do if my WW took a dump?  I suppose Virpil or VKB.  I agree that this is frustrating and not what you want to deal with at these costs and when you have a full time life.  Pay the money and it works.  Price and quality don't always follow. 

[Evocati443]

Just want to update everyone to close up the thread. My Bank/CC company finally got back to me and agreed with me on the dispute and reimbursed me on the purchase. I can now finally move on from this crap. 

The entire exchange with Winwing got so ridiculous that they asked me lie on the customs declaration form when shipping it back and declaring it under $10. I have never had a manufacture trying to tell me to mis-declare the value so they can dodge customs. After that I just ceased to even communicating with them. I never agreed to pay to ship it back, not to mention lying on a customs declaration form. For anyone even remotely thinking about buying their product, let my story be yet another warning. I've learned my lesson, next time i see some youtuber raving about some new toy that were sent to them FOR FREE, I should know better to treat it as a product promotion, not a review. 

My only hope is that since Winwing obviously is bent on selling poor quality products, and have no genuine intention of backing up their warranty, we the customers have no recourse other than voting with our wallets. We can only report and file claims with our CC/Banks in hope that maybe eventually the major Credits Card companies and bank would cease to do business with them and they will have no way of selling their broken products. 

@Apone, thanks for the heads up. i hear you on the stiffness of the TM Warhog, but at this point, I am willing to deal with it consider the entire ordeal that i had to go through here. I am just looking forward to finally resume flight. it's been almost two months since I was forced to ground all flights because everytime it disconnected, It would take me out of the game or pancake me straight to the ground. The last flight i took was a critical low altitude mission where i had to drop a J-Dam at 20k ft and quickly dive down to the deck before the SAM locks on. Needless to say, I pancaked straight to the ground because it chose the best time to disconnect. Experiences like that is enough to make a middle-aged man cough up blood. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Evocati443

[thekow]

Just to put my experience out there. 

I had random stick disconnects on my old PC which was an asus 270 board. 
Since moving to a new motherboard and new CPU, I haven't had the stick disconnect yet. 

I read there was issues with several older USB controllers on motherboards. 
This how ever is no excuse for winwing sticks to disconnect at all.

They need to fix the firmware to stop the stick timing out when there is an issue.

[Colonel Akir Nakesh]

Hey I thought I got this thing (Orion 1 base with F-16EX grip) fixed after replacing a few circuit boards, but still having disconnects. Curious if the others here have gotten their stick issues resolved?

[RJLee]

I have the same (Orion 1 base and F-16EX grip) and was having intermittent stick disconnects, occasional disconnects of the grip only (but not the base), and periodic lagginess/latency in the main stick axes when I moved the stick "aggressively" in circles while in the SimApp Pro status screen.  After changing USB cables and hubs, reseating the DIN connector in the grip, and doing a bunch of other random things, I finally opened the base, peeled off the hot glue from the two main connectors, and reseated them.  It's been about a week and I haven't seen any problems since, so hoping that fixes it.

I examined the base while the cover was off and suspect that the cables were a little short and/or the connectors weren't fully seated when they were glued in place.  With nothing to relieve the strain, certain stick movements were pulling on the cables enough to break the connection.  But we will see.

 

[BuzzU]

I was about to order one of these. Thanks for the thread. They aren't getting my money.

[mmike87]

I just heard on the stick I shipped back at my expense for $100 to China - their request to have it clear customs was denied. Not sure what that means, but I'm NOT taking a loss on this. I'll give WinWing one more chance to do the right thing, then it's chargeback time. 

[Colonel Akir Nakesh]

On 7/6/2023 at 8:48 AM, BuzzU said:

I was about to order one of these. Thanks for the thread. They aren't getting my money.

I take it you're not a gambler?

[Percival]

Well I had same issue. But theirs custommer support is really a pain in ....  Sent videos videos, pictures, etc. Poor quality control, in my case those cables at base use to move when I move the stick, so is very difficult to keep them in place, connector pin moves a lot, so random disconnections when rolling (x axis).  Another issue is SimApp PRO, I had to roll back to 1.7.32 version, I try my stick on a friend's PC and everything was ok, I Tried his Stick on mi pc and we got the same issue, so I decided to roll back to the version he was using and I would say that no software issues for now, but 1 time a month I need to check for those cables , anyway this is anoying because I varely use it, and when I started to using again the spring broke (same issue as others on this forum) I had to pay for the spring an shipping because my warranty time expired, but they never consider taht took me 2 month figure out the disconnection prblm,  I could'nt fly because of the cables ...well they did not care.

So I am back on my Thrustmaster F16 stick. winwing they need to fix this and most important take care of the people that trust in them, this is a expensive stick and they should cover every single dolar needed to fix it.

 

They sent me this file attached to fix it, but every answer took about one day so we were talking mora than a month. 

 

Ok please confirm cables are secured...please send me a video... please confirm this issue was solved..please confirm usb is plugged...blablabla. they do this on purpose

I bought 2 sticks and 2 hotas, my friend is getting the same crap. So we actually bought a couple of springs just in case and other 2 guys asked to get a couple as well, so at the end we the custommers share the shipping value.

 

Documment attached in case anyone would like to try before call them and wait an eternity for an answer

 

Winwing F16 repairs.docx

Edited August 7, 2023 by Percival

[PawlaczGMD]

I have possibly the same issue, where randomly either stick or throttle will stop responding for around 20 seconds. They don't actually disconnect as a device, just freeze.
This happens maybe once every 2 hours, so it's not often, but if it kills you, it's extremely annoying, and basically makes it useless for any longer MP mission.

Did anyone manage to resolve this?

I like the devices, but this is a major problem for multiplayer especially.

[hnbdgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:27 PM, PawlaczGMD said:

I have possibly the same issue, where randomly either stick or throttle will stop responding for around 20 seconds. They don't actually disconnect as a device, just freeze.
This happens maybe once every 2 hours, so it's not often, but if it kills you, it's extremely annoying, and basically makes it useless for any longer MP mission.

Did anyone manage to resolve this?

I like the devices, but this is a major problem for multiplayer especially.

hey I seem to have the same issue... I've recently updated the firmware on it. I also have mine plugged in via a on/off usb hub, wonder if that's the issue?

[PawlaczGMD]

9 hours ago, hnbdgr said:

hey I seem to have the same issue... I've recently updated the firmware on it. I also have mine plugged in via a on/off usb hub, wonder if that's the issue?

I don't think so. I have it plugged in directly.

I have heard some advice that it might be related to my CPU or motherboard. Are you on AM4? what is your hardware?

[hnbdgr]

oh no I'm on intel coffee lake - i8700k. Mobo- Aorus Z390pro (BIOS 15/15/2019)

[PawlaczGMD]

4 hours ago, hnbdgr said:

oh no I'm on intel coffee lake - i8700k. Mobo- Aorus Z390pro (BIOS 15/15/2019)

I have no idea then. Since I opened the stick and messed with reseating the wires and tightening the PCB, I have not had a stick D/C in a few day, but I still have it on the throttle. I will try to do the same to the throttle now, we'll see if it makes a difference.

[Heyjax]

Same problem, same response. I’ve spent literally thousands of dollars with them building my pit around their hardware. The customer service sucks and their unwillingness to back their products says it all. It’s hard for me to spend even more money on a Virpal or VKB hardware but as soon as I can I’ll move over and junk the Winwing products. To all potential buyers, stay the hell away from them and go with someone else. 
 

Hey WinWing are you listening?

[PawlaczGMD]

On 1/17/2024 at 12:15 PM, Heyjax said:

Same problem, same response. I’ve spent literally thousands of dollars with them building my pit around their hardware. The customer service sucks and their unwillingness to back their products says it all. It’s hard for me to spend even more money on a Virpal or VKB hardware but as soon as I can I’ll move over and junk the Winwing products. To all potential buyers, stay the hell away from them and go with someone else. 
 

Hey WinWing are you listening?

Public service announcement. I may have figured out what was causing this issue.

I believe it was caused by a hardware instability in my system. Specifically, RAM was causing failures. Since tuning my RAM settings in BIOS, I have not yet experienced a disconnect. It's not a definite proof yet, but here is what I recommend checking.

- Download prime95 and run the blended stress test for a few hours. If you get any errors, your PC has a stability problem.

- Download furmark and run the gpu burnin test for a few minutes. If you crash, you have a hardware issue.

- Download and run memtest86 with default settings. If it finds memory errors, you have memory problems.

I have contacted my RAM manufacturer support, and they have given me settings to try at lower speed. This has improved stability, and while before prime95 and memtest were erroring, they are now fine. Alternatively, try setting your memory speed to 2666 Mhz, which should be more stable.

Explanation I was given: mem sticks are sold and tested in pairs, but I have 4, so they are not tested to work together in the factory. Indeed, any pair works for me at 3600 MHz, but they fail when I use 3 or 4. I am currently running 4 sticks at 3200 MHz.

Just try the tests above, and try to fix the issue as appropriate. See if the Winwing still disconnects.

[hnbdgr]

fair, with me it was plugging the usb into the case instead of the usb hub. now it behaves very well. I still have my rudder, stick and saitek throttle quadrant in the usb hub, just the winwing throttle in the case.

[Paveway333]

Same issue here, randomly freezes for about 15-20 seconds and then works fine again. No USB disconnect sounds etc, happens to both throttle and stick (more often stick).. Actually happens to all four of mine orion 2's (2x throttle and 2x stick base). Sometimes it's really bad and happens a few times in row during a session, and other times I can't trigger the problem for days. 
Background tasks I often have open are Discord, TrackIR, Steelseries app and sometimes Process Lasso.
No clue what is causing this....  =( 

edit: Would be interesting to see if it is DCS related or if it still happens when the game is closed.

edit2: 

Maybe related, Will try this fix when I get home.

i9 12900k, rtx 3090, 32gb ddr5

Edited February 12 by Paveway333