not planned J-11A with PL-12??

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

If someone get to ED correct documentation from open sources with confirm that info. Not only pics.

Remember, that is not "balance" or "capabilities never put on services".

 

There are difference kind of balances involved here. A game manufacturer may choose to balance sides, however in DCS this is inherently not the case. We have airframes from early 80s (Mig-29, Su-27, Su-25A, A-10A), and some examples from early 90s (J-11A, Mig-29S, F-15C, Su-25T). Obviously pitting those aircraft against post-2005 airframes will not produce the "balance". However, even then we could argue that they are not modeled on the same level, or even that they are modeled in a totally wrong way with known faults and further accumulating errors as the time progresses. In this case there is a huge gap in DCS, which something that will continue to progress as more and more of capabilities is added to only one side. Result is obvious: it will be Blue vs Blue story and nothing else.

As for available documentation, I do not believe that ED has any IRL documentation on AIM-120C other than the marketing brochures. As a matter of fact I am willing to bet that there is no BVR missile or relevant aircraft radars in DCS for which there is any open and declassified documentation. While e.g. for R-27 and flanker/fulcrum there might be some things available in form of books, large majority of it is not declassified. Therefore I see no reason why ED could not apply same principles to FC3 and it's weaponary, since we clearly saw that they already did it in the past.

There is also one more personal asking from my side: I do understand that you are very passionate about DCS and you try to collect and assemble the news for us in a very professional manner, and I really do appreciate that. However sometimes you act as the ED's PR (BigNewy is doing great job at that), while I have a feeling that you are not 100% in your area of the know how. Please do not get offended by this, I will still continue following your content. 

2 hours ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

R-27ER range of 130 km has been reduced to 100 km, do you know this? The PL-12 missile would not reach a range of 130 km, only 100 km!

From what I have seen on comments for R-27ER from people competent in this area,  the current range pretty much matches the projections. The major limitations to R-27ER are:

1. apparent inability to require on relock (single sentence statement from leaked manual)

2. it triggers RWR from launch. Probably it did not in early 80s, but by now in 2024 pretty much sure it does. R-77 does also trigger RWR, even though we know it has a different DL updates than R-27. Basically you fire them and they guys on other side start defending instantly.

3. power source of 60 seconds (it's not a battery, but rather a turbine) for both normal extended variants (by far this is the largest problem with ER/ET). The 60 seconds came from book published in Russian in general public. On one side it may be accurate, since reuse was design principle of this missile, on other side there are pictures showing different body part for ET/ER where they should be the same. Until this point I have not found any other evidence that would support existing 60 seconds or more for extended range ones.

As for PL-12, longest shot I made was 97km, with missile traveling at Mach 3 at the time of the impact.

There are many errors, but range itself is not the most critical limiting factor.

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Regarding the AIM-120 we have done a lot of work on them over the years you can see some of this work in past newsletters and white papers. 

I read majority of those papers (I can not claim I have found them all). Can you please confirm what was the source for the 3dB improvement in S/N for hornet/viper radars? Except for argument it's newer, hence better (which is natural to expect). Was some sort of analogy comparison done? (e.g. to avoid depending on IRL documentation).

[BIGNEWY]

Lets not derail this thread with AIM-120. 

Again if you think something is wrong and you have public data to prove it feel free to PM me. All of our research and years of development ensure we are as close to real life as we can be using data from public sources. 

Forgive me if this seems dismissive, I've been here over a decade with various people making claims and never being able to provide data that would be usable by us. 

[Fighterinterceptor]

5 hours ago, okopanja said:

From what I have seen on comments for R-27ER from people competent in this area,  the current range pretty much matches the projections. The major limitations to R-27ER are:

1. apparent inability to require on relock (single sentence statement from leaked manual)

2. it triggers RWR from launch. Probably it did not in early 80s, but by now in 2024 pretty much sure it does. R-77 does also trigger RWR, even though we know it has a different DL updates than R-27. Basically you fire them and they guys on other side start defending instantly.

3. power source of 60 seconds (it's not a battery, but rather a turbine) for both normal extended variants (by far this is the largest problem with ER/ET). The 60 seconds came from book published in Russian in general public. On one side it may be accurate, since reuse was design principle of this missile, on other side there are pictures showing different body part for ET/ER where they should be the same. Until this point I have not found any other evidence that would support existing 60 seconds or more for extended range ones.

 

I don't argue with the developers anymore because this is a game software in which you have to use the values set by the developers! The R-27ER used to be able to do 130 km, now it is 100 km, but I ask why the N001 radar can detect bomber-sized targets from 200+ km completely unnecessarily! I know information from other places, but the problem is that until you have a secret document that they make public, they will never take you seriously! I ask why the N001 radar sees bomber-sized targets 200+ km away?

So let's say: Max launch distance for R-27R( R1 export ) is 60kms in stratosphere for big incoming air target. Max possible launch distance with max launch parameters V max 2.2 Mach and H max 16kms for MiG-29 is 90kms . For R-27ER it is more then 150kms when launched from Su-27S ( V max 2.2 Mach and H max 18kms )

Simple! The Su 27, the N001, and the R-27ER are secret, so they must be set so that they don't violate the law, if that's the case, nobody cares!

I just want a PL-12 missile, which I have already proven in many ways that everyone would only benefit from it if it happened!

Edited March 4, 2024 by Fighterinterceptor

[BIGNEWY]

folks again, dont go off topic or we will just close the thread. 

Topic here is J-11A with PL-12 

off topic posts will be removed. 

thank you 

[okopanja]

1 minute ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

I don't argue with the developers anymore because this is a game software in which you have to use the values set by the developers! The R-27ER used to be able to do 130 km, now it is 100 km, but I ask why the N001 radar can detect bomber-sized targets from 200+ km completely unnecessarily! I know information from other places, but the problem is that until you have a secret document that they make public, they will never take you seriously! I ask why the N001 radar sees bomber-sized targets 200+ km away?

I believe that a forum user @tavarish palkovnik did do independent in-depth validation of the range based on the known parameters + some assumptions.

As for the radar range, I am not sure what are you aiming at, but I would suggest you take the radar equation to compare the ranges for different radar ranges and see if they follow the same parameters. You might be able even to derive some of the parameters ED has used.

2 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

off topic posts will be removed. 

please do not delete, but let's refocus on PL-12 as you suggested.

[BIGNEWY]

14 minutes ago, okopanja said:

please do not delete, but let's refocus on PL-12 as you suggested.

Yes that is all we need to keep this thread active. 

thank you 

[BIGNEWY]

I have checked with the teams, we have no plans to add the PL-12 to the J-11A

[Fighterinterceptor]

16 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

I have checked with the teams, we have no plans to add the PL-12 to the J-11A

Thanks for your patience and help!

 

[cerebrave]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:22 PM, Fighterinterceptor said:

Thanks for your patience and help!

 

I was wondering if you have ever jumped into GS MP server, they got all PL-12 all over the place for J-11A.  FOX-3s are now getting further and plenty in J-11A or even Su-33 in GS.

Additionally, If you are flying solo, from mission editor, you can arm two SD-10s for J11A, i find it somehow saved/stored within the bottom default weapon load-out configuration.

We are still however, unable to rearm mid-game, you can only have SD-10/ PL-12 when the mission begin (or when you are slotting in within MP server).  Also, few graphical glitches like missing pylons will be seen.  Other than that, its all good!

Cheers!

[Mike_Romeo]

6 minutes ago, cerebrave said:

unable to rearm mid-game

Not true. Once you returned and shut your aircraft down, open the rearm and refuel menu and change NOTHING other than fuel and countermeasures and it will reload the missiles you had in the  beginning.

7 minutes ago, cerebrave said:

like missing pylons will be seen

This was fixed with the latest DCS update

[cerebrave]

16 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Not true. Once you returned and shut your aircraft down, open the rearm and refuel menu and change NOTHING other than fuel and countermeasures and it will reload the missiles you had in the  beginning.

This was fixed with the latest DCS update

Hey.. thanks buddy.  So all is good now!  amazing, problem solved!

[cerebrave]

21 hours ago, cerebrave said:

I was wondering if you have ever jumped into GS MP server, they got all PL-12 all over the place for J-11A.  FOX-3s are now getting further and plenty in J-11A or even Su-33 in GS.

Additionally, If you are flying solo, from mission editor, you can arm two SD-10s for J11A, i find it somehow saved/stored within the bottom default weapon load-out configuration.

We are still however, unable to rearm mid-game, you can only have SD-10/ PL-12 when the mission begin (or when you are slotting in within MP server).  Also, few graphical glitches like missing pylons will be seen.  Other than that, its all good!

Cheers!

I would like to add about my mention of the missile in the Mission Editor (ME), an ED beta tester confirmed to me that it shouldn't be there by default. 

After some confusion on how those are there, I found out that the missiles are apparently being there because I had 'stolen' the configuration from an ME server/map that had the mod.  For instance I did mentioned that my J-11A had two SD10 in ME, it is because I saved my load-out during a SATAC match I play recently. 

Knowing that, I try just now in GS, save the load-out during a GS match, then voila! PL-12 missiles can be used in your own ME for your own mission for J-11A and Su-33.  It is a great way to obtain these for your own play (and yes, it is now with pylons).

Cheers!

[Irisz]

 

Unfortunately, the PL-12 missile cannot be mounted on the J-11A! I will show you the truth, many interpreted it as PL-12, but unfortunately the truth is different!

In this picture, training missile of R-27ER.: http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/MEDIA/PhotosChina/_attachment/2018/07/16/8090660_164a1d323db80906600491.jpg

You can see the head of the RVV-AE is a different design than the R-27ER. You can compare them in the pictures!

Edited May 25, 2024 by Irisz

[Wyvern]

Except the pictures you show have different missiles on them. The shape of the head is different between the RVV-AE, and the missile carried on the J-11A in the pictues. Plus the Writing seems to be different. At last, you cant see whether it is an J-11A or J-11B in the 2nd picture.

[Wyvern]

23 hours ago, Irisz said:

compare how the missile tits in those pictures

The R-77 in the middle is much further back/shorter than the PL-12 in the picture above. It also cant be an R-27, as that has a completely different shape.

Lastly, NO, the J-11 can not carry 6x R-27ETs, as those pylons do not have the ability to mount the neccessairy Cooling unit for the missile. What you see it a transfer loadout.

[Irisz]

The missiles of the J-11A with a yellow line always mean training missiles, not combat missiles!

All Flanker fans can see the R-27ER training missile from a different angle! Unfortunately, these are not PL-12 missiles!

Another picture where the J-11A performs a task with a R-27ER training missile!

 

Two more detailed pictures of the MAWS used by the J-11A!

 

 

Edited June 5, 2024 by Irisz

[Wyvern]

all training missiles in China are either blue or white with the yellow stripe.
Doesn't mean much however, as this is a different excercise, we dont know when that picture was taken.

It is known that that the J-11A is going through a MLU program, similar to how the F-16 got running upgrades.
We simply dont know to what extend those upgrades came. All that we know is that there is upgrades.
That can also mean that the plane recieved a completely new cockpit and/or avionics package.
We dont know how the MAWS is integrated. Possible that it simply uses the one extra screen, also possible that the plane recieved a completely new system.
But again, there is no solid info on this, so nobody knows for sure.

[Irisz]

9 hours ago, Wyvern said:

all training missiles in China are either blue or white with the yellow stripe.
Doesn't mean much however, as this is a different excercise, we dont know when that picture was taken.

It is known that that the J-11A is going through a MLU program, similar to how the F-16 got running upgrades.
We simply dont know to what extend those upgrades came. All that we know is that there is upgrades.
That can also mean that the plane recieved a completely new cockpit and/or avionics package.
We dont know how the MAWS is integrated. Possible that it simply uses the one extra screen, also possible that the plane recieved a completely new system.
But again, there is no solid info on this, so nobody knows for sure.

I have already described countless times on the forum that the Ukrainian aircraft factory 558 modernized the J-11A! The J-11's radar is a dinosaur and outdated. That's why the processor had to be replaced. I read about it for at least 1 hour every day! Yesterday, for example, I read that the N001 radar had such a weak processor that if there were 10 targets on the HUD at the same time and the 11th target appeared, it was overloaded and had to be restarted.

Somehow understand that Ukraine will not release the secret Military Documents! I already wrote about this, that what Deka wanted is impossible. (unfortunately, he won't write on the forum that I'm sorry, guys, I promised something I shouldn't have done) He hasn't been able to do it for 6 years, no one will get those secret documents!

The J-11A needs a Su-25T style solution. You can aim the KH-29T and KAB-500KR weapons with the OLS or the weapon's seeker. And the KH-31P can use Su-25T style targeting to target the J-11A as the Su-25T uses the KH-58 and KH-25MPU weapons. The appearance of the MFI-55 display is not a secret, a user has already done this himself!

Here is the full description of the MFI-55! The J-11A could also be built from this without violating military secrets: https://lancercell.wordpress.com/2017/04/06/upgrade-su-27-30-oleh-558-aircraft-repair-plant/

It should be understood that these are secret Ukrainian military secrets! The FC3 product does not present the full functions of the aircraft, but does everything in a simplified way. That's why it would be good to return these functions in a simplified way!

Since 2018, what Deka has been promising people is starting to turn into a farce, and we could have had the existing solutions used by the Su-25T years ago, and we could have enjoyed the extra functions of the J-11A!

All this is that ordinary citizens are trying to obtain military secrets, and moreover, completely free of charge, and they cannot understand that this is impossible without going to Ukraine and talking to the head of plant 558!

From these screenshots, you can put together what kind of weapons the MFI-55 can use! Currently, if you mount the KH-31P missile on the Su-25T, it can launch it. The Su-25T uses the KH-29T and KAB-500KR weapons by default. Temporarily this would be easy to do! The radar is another question, does ED allow it to have a range of 120 km, be able to attack 2 targets at the same time in an ECM environment and increase the tracking distance to 70 km!

You don't need the Satellite ECM pod, it's a completely military secret!

I think Deka could still make people happy!

Please don't criticize, I want to help and that these weapons can be used on the J-11A in some form!

Edited June 6, 2024 by Irisz

[Wyvern]

That post you linked up there is for the Su-27UB and Su-30.
Not the J-11A

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

29 minutes ago, Irisz said:

(unfortunately, he won't write on the forum that I'm sorry, guys, I promised something I shouldn't have done)

That has been said. The ENTIRE J-11A process was stopped to focus on the JF-17.

[Irisz]

Another proof of MFI-55: http://www.irkutsk.org/fed/su.html

[Wyvern]

30 minutes ago, Irisz said:

You can aim the KH-29T and KAB-500KR weapons with the OLS

No you can not. The OLS is not capable of being used as a imaging seeker for ground targets.

[Wyvern]

32 minutes ago, Irisz said:

And the KH-31P can use Su-25T style targeting to target the J-11A as the Su-25T uses the KH-58 and KH-25MPU weapons.

no it can not. It requires the APK-9 pod here, which is being used on the Su-30, not the J-11A.
 

 

34 minutes ago, Irisz said:

if you mount the KH-31P missile on the Su-25T, it can launch it. The Su-25T uses the KH-29T and KAB-500KR weapons by default

This is most likely due to how the missile is coded in the game. It has nothing to do with reallife.
As you said FC3 is simplifying systems, thats why if you mount an AIM-120, or even an AIM-54 onto the J-11A, it will work, because FC3 takes care of that.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Irisz said:

You don't need the Satellite ECM pod, it's a completely military secret!

That would not be much of an issue, as ECM in DCS is not simulated properly anyway.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Irisz said:

Another proof of MFI-55: http://www.irkutsk.org/fed/su.html

This is talking about the Su-27UBM/Su-30, again no mention of the J-11A.

 

[Irisz]

2 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

No you can not. The OLS is not capable of being used as a imaging seeker for ground targets.

Unfortunately, you are very uninformed on the subject, just as you didn't even know that the yellow marked missiles were practice rockets! Please read through the history of the J-11A because others have already searched for all the available data about it with pictures: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/303416-accurate-j-11a/?do=findComment&comment=5393297

You are still waiting for military secrets that are secret and it seems that you don't even read my comments, I specifically asked you not to do this toxic condescending behavior, but there is no point in writing answers to you because you are on a dead end! Unlike you, I have been dealing with this for more than 10 years, how the different Flanker and Fulcrum aircraft types have developed!

If possible, ignore it, there's no point in me writing here, because whatever I suggest is met with indifference. Unfortunately, I have to repeat myself that you will never receive Ukrainian military secrets on this forum, so you don't understand the proposal itself, or, as I said, you don't read what I write and react to my posts like that! I had to ask you to write respectfully to your fellow forum members, because you don't write with your friends who buy this style!

[Wyvern]

I think you are confusing the J-11A with the Vietnamese Su-27SK. I know that Vietnam was using ukraine to take care of their Su-27s.

[okopanja]

39 minutes ago, Irisz said:

You can aim the KH-29T and KAB-500KR weapons with the OLS or the weapon's seeker.

For your information: the IR detector in OLS is a segment cross shaped detector which can be utilized only to track the target. It is incapable of producing the image. As for the laser guided missiles: OLS has the laser range finder. It could be perhaps used to iluminate the target or receive the illumination from another target, but this is nowhere near the SHKVAL and note that its position obscures the lower half sphere to large extent.