not planned J-11A with PL-12??

[Wyvern]

As mentioned in the JF-17 SD-10 thread, there are pictures of a/multiple J-11As carrying the PL-12.
You can see here::
White antenna section behind the nose, the Black-grey nose cone, only present on the Su-30MKK and the J-11A
RKL-609 on the Wingtip, also only carried by Russian Versions
It also doesn't have the Beidou MAWS in the picture

Edited May 19, 2023 by Wyvern

[Wyvern]

Additional Photos, also visible here: AL-31 engine and again, no MAWS


 

This hud appears to be the russian one, but im not surenullnull

Edited May 19, 2023 by Wyvern

[F-2]

Interestingly they are all centerline, I had an article saying the MKK could carry PL-12 on all stations because of a better mission computer. Maybe the J-11 is limited by the computer? The F-15 had some limits when it first got AMRAAM.

[Wyvern]

6 minutes ago, F-2 said:

Interestingly they are all centerline, I had an article saying the MKK could carry PL-12 on all stations because of a better mission computer. Maybe the J-11 is limited by the computer? The F-15 had some limits when it first got AMRAAM.

Im not sure, Probably just training.

Knowing how the R-77 has been used on the Su-27S, the PL-12 in theory can be carried instead of the R-77, if you reprogram the Computer for it.

[okopanja]

28 minutes ago, F-2 said:

Interestingly they are all centerline, I had an article saying the MKK could carry PL-12 on all stations because of a better mission computer. Maybe the J-11 is limited by the computer? The F-15 had some limits when it first got AMRAAM.

Center-line: likely less drag.

[F-2]

23 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Center-line: likely less drag.

Yes but it’s different from their other flankers

https://twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1035157953270169600

 

[Wyvern]

I mean, It reduces the stress on the wings, is more aerodynamic and also better for weight distribution

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[EasternEagle]

Ouu this would be nice for RedFor

 

[Skyhammer]

It would be great to have PL-12 on the J-11A

[Blackhawk NC]

Check out the Strike Package server- Contention. Good missions for both red and blue. Syria map is modern armament with pl-12  and pl-8 for the J-11.  Sinai map is mid cold war. No fox 3 missiles on either side. Makes for a very good, competitive arena.  

[Fighterinterceptor]

Open letter to Deka Ironwork and ED!

I'd like to share my opinion on this subject. Deka Ironworks and ED should consider exclusively adding the PL-12 missile to the J-11A! Let me explain why! Firstly, considering the health of DCS World and Flaming Cliffs 3, the product is not sustainable. The Su-25T prototype, the Su-25TM prototype, and the Su-33 do not have a separate naval version of the N001K radar, only the N001, like the Su-27. There is no greater detection and tracking range between the MiG 29A and the MiG 29S radar to suggest that the MiG 29S radar is stronger in real life! The MiG 29A radar detects the F-16CM fighter jet from a distance of 70 km, while the MiG 29S detects the F-16CM fighter jet from a distance of 66 km (I tested this yesterday, flying both MiG 29s at an altitude of 1750 meters, and these values were obtained flying over water, with the F-16CM launched from 2000 meters head-on). So, Flaming Cliffs 3 is not about simulating 100% reality but about simplicity and minor differences between the aircraft types. For example, the MiG 29S can use a more modern R-77 missile and has the TWS 2 capability. Why can't there be such a difference between the Su-27 and the J-11A for the sake of the game's health when it is evident in real photos that the J-11A has the PL-12 missile? The R-77 and the PL-12 include the same guidance head! It's fine that we don't get the N001V or N001VE radar for the J-11A because there's no documentation for it, but the PL-12 missile is a modification that has been in the game for years!

I've been a Flanker fan since 2009, and I stopped using DCS World 2 years ago because the dominance of the AIM-120C was unbearable on online servers. I only play on PvP servers, so life is getting harder. Now that I'm back and flying the Flanker again, I see all these topics on the forum where so many people are calling for the PL-12 missile to be added to the J-11A, and I want it too because it's sad that you can only enjoy on a single server flying the Flanker against NATO aircraft on the Growling Sidewinder PvP server because they add the PL-12 missile to the J-11A here. Try flying on any other servers where you have to fly against NATO aircraft. I don't want to criticize the servers of the 80s where modern NATO aircraft from after 2000 fly with advanced radars and older missiles, this is not the 80s!

Add the PL-12 missile to the J-11A, and these problems will be solved for maybe 10 years because everyone knows that there won't be a modern Flanker in DCS World for decades to come! If more products from the 80s come to DCS World, which we are very happy about, there still won't be anything to compete with modern NATO aircraft. Let's also talk about the Eurofighter Typhoon, which brings the METEOR missile to DCS World!

There are numerous pictures of the J-11A carrying the PL-12 missile. I mentioned the differences compared to reality above, so the question is, if Flaming Cliffs 3 doesn't show 100% reality on these aircraft, then why is it such a big obstacle to add the PL-12 missile to the J-11A? The J-11A hasn't received any modifications since 2018, I feel that a 6-year waiting time is long enough to get some attention and get this missile. This modification guarantees the future of Flaming Cliffs 3. It brings back veteran Flanker pilots like me to the game! If a new player buys the Flaming Cliffs 3 product, they won't face this disadvantage and won't be disappointed that they are a Flanker fan because they came here to enjoy the game and love what they do, but such a disadvantage that is a minimum of 20 years cannot be overcome just like that. The PL-12 is the solution!

I respectfully ask Deka Ironworks and ED to take this step for the bright future of DCS World and ensure that their product remains attractive in the future and that more new players give their money to ED because their product is attractive! This modification requires 5 minutes of work, just modify the J-11A payload to include this PL-12 missile!

I have attached two picture detailing the use of the J-11A PL-12 missile, among other things. However, the main point is that the J-11A uses the PL-12 missile! It is written there, and there are even real pictures above that prove the J-11A uses the PL-12 missile! I think this is enough evidence! I am not asking for a better radar or any other trinkets, just the PL-12 missile that can be mounted on the J-11A by default!

There is a forum thread where they want an AIM-120A missile for the F-14! I'll ask anyway, if the F-14 only tested the AIM-120A missile and the J-11A also only tested it, then why not? Adding both rockets makes DCS World a more attractive product and brings money to the creator and happiness to the user! Everyone benefits from this!

Has anyone seen the real MiG 29S launch an R-77 missile? Many MiG 29S can be seen on the internet, but none of them carry R-77 missiles. I have only seen a model of an R-77 missile on the MiG 29S, which is an imitator, not a real missile! Here in DCS World, we use this missile! I think these couple of arguments hold up well enough to get a PL-12 missile for the J-11A!

Respectfully, an enthusiastic Flanker fan!

 

PL-12 Info!

I attached two pictures where I underlined the point! I recommend that you look up at the first picture because there is another interesting thing about the J-11A!

What I highlighted is on page 54!

Here they describe the information that the PL-12 missile can be used in SARH mode like the R-27R and R-27ER, so it is compatible with the radar of the J-11A!  As we can still use it with the J-11A, only it is not officially equipped by ED on the J-11A! Repeating the information, the homing head of the PL-12 missile is the same as the R-77 missile that we now use on the J-11A!

http://www.pmulcahy.com/aams/chinese_aams.htm

"The PL-12 may be used in four ways: SARH (one level more accurate, but requires the aircraft to lock-on and keep it); the PL-12 may be launched using inertial navigation out to a certain range, then it turns on its own active seeker (one level more difficult); it can be fired like a conventional active homing missile, with the missile's seeker taking over after traveling halfway to the target; or it can use Home On Jam, with a Difficult chance to guide itself using its active seeker towards an enemy ECM emitter.  The PL-12 has a maneuvering limit of 48gs, making it slightly more effective than the AIM-120A and B, but less than the AIM-120C."

http://hanfeng1918.com/baijia/53317.html

"Early fighters equipped by the People's Liberation Army cannot carry PL-15 air-to-air missiles due to their limited radar and fire control performance, such as the J-10A, J-11A, J-15 and other fighters. , they can only carry the lower-level PL-12 medium-range air-to-air missile."

 

Edited March 4 by Fighterinterceptor

[Wyvern]

1 hour ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

There is a forum thread where they want an AIM-120A missile for the F-14! I'll ask anyway, if the F-14 only tested the AIM-120A missile and the J-11A also only tested it, then why not? Adding both rockets makes DCS World a more attractive product and brings money to the creator and happiness to the user! Everyone benefits from this!

That is not exactly true, as the AIM-120 was indeed tested on the F-14, however, that was tested on the F-14D if i remember correctly.

[Fighterinterceptor]

8 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

That is not exactly true, as the AIM-120 was indeed tested on the F-14, however, that was tested on the F-14D if i remember correctly.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/303232-aim-120a/#comment-5393316

I pointed to this topic above! I think artificial barriers hinder people! AIM 120A gives you many new activities. It adds more detail to the simulation and gives you the opportunity to play against the R-77 missile!

[okopanja]

First: do not get me wrong, I am here for the same thing, but I noted few corrections.

While you were absent many things have occurred:

1. F-15C radar range got extended
2. F-18/F-16 got at least 2 realistic radar improvements
3. F-18/F-16 got at least 2 realistic FM upgrades. Pretty sure we will see at least 1-2 more realistic FM in future.

At the same time Flanker:

1. R-27ER/R got HOJ fixed
2. R-27ER/R lost ability to re-acquire of the radar track is lost
3. Flanker's MFD is even buggier than before.
4. Flanker's FM is consistent with real one in landing and takeoff (to put this mild). I am still unable to execute cobra. Maybe I am a bad pilot, but some way better people do not manage to do it.

Now to be 100% honest: oppozition is mid 2000s, where flanker is early 80s. That on it's own is a huge gap in term of capability, and I am not sure how ED plans to fill in this.

And btw: we will have FF Mig-29A.

1 hour ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

There is no greater detection and tracking range between the MiG 29A and the MiG 29S radar to suggest that the MiG 29S radar is stronger in real life!

The capability to carry R-77 was obtained through upgrade of onboard computer Ts-100 to Ts-101/Ts-102 block and additional radar installation (same computers were used both in 29 and 27). This upgrade was possible even with 9-12 frames as early as of 1996, but given the fact that Ts-101/Ts-102 mass production started in 1991 probably earlier.

The major differences include:

1. improved reliability
2. improved range
3. better resistance to ECM (e.g. no drop from TWS to search more due to the faster digial computer)
4. ability to carry R-77
5. ability to carry Kab-500

1 hour ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

I only play on PvP servers, so life is getting harder. Now that I'm back and flying the Flanker again, I see all these topics on the forum where so many people are calling for the PL-12 missile to be added to the J-11A, and I want it too because it's sad that you can only enjoy on a single server flying the Flanker against NATO aircraft on the Growling Sidewinder PvP server because they add the PL-12 missile to the J-11A here.

Addition of Pl-12 improved the gameplay there, although I must say PL-12 is inferior to AIM-120C in many respects. The most noticeable is absence of INS, PL-12 must be at least guided long enough to pass the highest point of the trajectory, to have chances of acquiring on it's own. Furthermore seeker in AIM-120C is much more reliable and it looks like PL-12 is actually using older version of AMRAAM API.

1 hour ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

Add the PL-12 missile to the J-11A, and these problems will be solved for maybe 10 years because everyone knows that there won't be a modern Flanker in DCS World for decades to come! If more products from the 80s come to DCS World, which we are very happy about, there still won't be anything to compete with modern NATO aircraft. Let's also talk about the Eurofighter Typhoon, which brings the METEOR missile to DCS World!

With meteor I think we will see AIM-120C7 or AIM-120D.

1 hour ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

The R-77 and the PL-12 include the same guidance head!

I do not think this is the case. From what I read the PL-12 out of collaboration that involved R-77 seeker at early stage, but this should be entirely new electronics. This likely involves better S/N (I think at least a decade in terms of electronics and processing).

 

[Fighterinterceptor]

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

Addition of Pl-12 improved the gameplay there, although I must say PL-12 is inferior to AIM-120C in many respects. The most noticeable is absence of INS, PL-12 must be at least guided long enough to pass the highest point of the trajectory, to have chances of acquiring on it's own. Furthermore seeker in AIM-120C is much more reliable and it looks like PL-12 is actually using older version of AMRAAM API.
 

You confirmed my post above!

"The PL-12 may be used in four ways: SARH (one level more accurate, but requires the aircraft to lock-on and keep it); the PL-12 may be launched using inertial navigation out to a certain range, then it turns on its own active seeker."

As the MiG 29S does, and the MiG 29S 50 km range radio correction channel is not even simulated! The HUD is missing the line that shows the R-77 entering the active phase (pitbull) or the battery life of the R-27 family! These are not necessary because they don't exist in Flaming Cliffs 3, you can simply equip any air to air missile, it will work!

 

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

I do not think this is the case. From what I read the PL-12 out of collaboration that involved R-77 seeker at early stage, but this should be entirely new electronics. This likely involves better S/N (I think at least a decade in terms of electronics and processing).

 

I can only say that the range of the MiG 29A and MiG 29S radars in DCS World is no different! The R-77 missile was never seen on a MiG 29S fighter, it only carried a mockup which was not a real R-77. There are no modifications to the MiG 29S radar except for the TWS2 and it still uses the R-77 missile. Therefore, these things are equivalent to Flaming Cliffs 3 properties. However, there are real pictures of the J-11A carrying the PL-12 missile!

DCS World is a product that should be attractive. The success of the Growling Sidewinder server shows that this step would be a good decision. The PL-12 does not threaten the AIM 120C, and if the METEOR missile arrives, the PL-12 will not be in competition with it. Everyone imagine the J-11A without the PL-12 fighting against a METEOR missile carrier.

Can someone explain why it is good to limit the appeal of a product so that it is not an attractive product? The PL-12 missile has been in the DCS World game files for 6 years and is available! Meanwhile, we just wait and grow old, others leave DCS World because it has no appeal! Others offer more for free!

Edited March 4 by Fighterinterceptor

[okopanja]

46 minutes ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

You confirmed my post above!

Well I did not want to dispute you, but just correct some of the things along what I remember the changes were made during last 2 years.

Still I am curious how ED will resolve the obvious dis-balance in modern in future.

One possibility is that modern remains blue only, while red shifts to 80s and earlier cold war. After all the majority of the skilled user base is there and not in the modern.

[Fighterinterceptor]

9 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Well I did not want to dispute you, but just correct some of the things along what I remember the changes were made during last 2 years.

Still I am curious how ED will resolve the obvious dis-balance in modern in future.

One possibility is that modern remains blue only, while red shifts to 80s and earlier cold war. After all the majority of the skilled user base is there and not in the modern.

I came back after 2 years, while watching what was happening in the DCS world. Thank you very much for writing about the changes! But I came back to play with my favorite Flanker precisely because the Growling Sidewinder server adds a PL-12 missile to the J-11A. And before that, I uninstalled DCS World and left it here precisely because I got bored with the easy air combat game of AMRAAM carriers!

I came back and had 9 kills with PL-12 in 40 minutes! I am a living example of how much value this step would have if the PL-12 were added to the J-11A!

[Silver_Dragon]

13 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Well I did not want to dispute you, but just correct some of the things along what I remember the changes were made during last 2 years.

Still I am curious how ED will resolve the obvious dis-balance in modern in future.

One possibility is that modern remains blue only, while red shifts to 80s and earlier cold war. After all the majority of the skilled user base is there and not in the modern.

If someone get to ED correct documentation from open sources with confirm that info. Not only pics.

Remember, that is not "balance" or "capabilities never put on services".

Edited March 4 by Silver_Dragon

[Fighterinterceptor]

8 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

If someone get to ED correct documentation from open sources with confirm that info. Not only pics.

Remember, that is not "balance" or "capabilities never put on services".

 

In fact, this educated user base is no longer in the game in such large numbers. Compare the situation in 2016 when YouTube was full of Flanker gameplays and we enjoyed the game! Now you only see users who haven't played for about 4 or 5 years or so, the veterans have all left the game. For example, my favorite MiG 29 pilot Preshing, my role model who motivated me, even he started playing under F-16 because he couldn't deal with the increased range of the AIM-120C as a veteran. What is even more interesting is that the R-27ER range of 130 km has been reduced to 100 km, do you know this? The PL-12 missile would not reach a range of 130 km, only 100 km!

Edited March 4 by Fighterinterceptor

[Silver_Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

In fact, this educated user base is no longer in the game in such large numbers. Compare the situation in 2016 when YouTube was full of Flanker gameplays and we enjoyed the game! Now you only see users who haven't played for about 4 or 5 years or so, the veterans have all left the game. For example, my favorite MiG 29 pilot Preshing, my role model who motivated me, even he started playing under F-16 because he couldn't deal with the increased range of the AIM-120C as a veteran. What is even more interesting is that the R27-ER range of 130 km has been reduced to 100 km, do you know this? The PL-12 missile would not reach a range of 130 km, only 100 km!

 

We talk about DCS o other product?

[Fighterinterceptor]

4 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

We talk about DCS o other product?

I have been playing with Flaming Cliffs 3 since the launch of DCS world, we are talking about DCS World and I know about all the changes that have changed!

Edited March 4 by Fighterinterceptor

[BIGNEWY]

7 minutes ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

In fact, this educated user base is no longer in the game in such large numbers. Compare the situation in 2016 when YouTube was full of Flanker gameplays and we enjoyed the game! Now you only see users who haven't played for about 4 or 5 years or so, the veterans have all left the game. For example, my favorite MiG 29 pilot Preshing, my role model who motivated me, even he started playing under F-16 because he couldn't deal with the increased range of the AIM-120C as a veteran. What is even more interesting is that the R-27ER range of 130 km has been reduced to 100 km, do you know this? The PL-12 missile would not reach a range of 130 km, only 100 km!

 

You make some bold claims, especially about veterans of DCS, I am not sure where you get your data from, but it is wrong. Considering DCS continues to grow year after year and so do the amount of people who fly. 

If you have public data showing any issue with a jet feel free to PM me.

 

[Silver_Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

I have been playing with Flaming Cliffs since 3 the launch of DCS world, we are talking about DCS World and I know about all the changes that have changed!

 

on 2016, the "red side" was only FC-3, the Mi-8, L-39 and the Mig-15Bis, was normal with the Youtube comunity was fill with flankers videos... many has changed from 2016....on the red side and the modules has continue growind (more red aircrafts has released as Mig-19P of J-11A and JF-17P by Dekka). Remember FC-3 continue simplified, and actualy the only "modern" red side module has de incoming ED Mig-29A (early I think), RAZBAM Mig-23MLA, Dekka J-8PP and claims by Octopus-G of a future Su-22M.

Edited March 4 by Silver_Dragon

[Fighterinterceptor]

14 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

You make some bold claims, especially about veterans of DCS, I am not sure where you get your data from, but it is wrong. Considering DCS continues to grow year after year and so do the amount of people who fly. 

If you have public data showing any issue with a jet feel free to PM me.

 

I have already presented all the information I knew! I wrote down all my arguments that I knew, it would simply be a development step, but everything has to be proven with secret military documents, which is impossible. The popularity of the game is evident, it can also be observed on YouTube that there are hardly any veteran YouTubers with Flanker. Only newbies make videos! I can list names who published a lot of video content in 2016, these YouTube channels are now extinct!

It seems that I'm just whining like a child, but if you observe this topic a little, you can see that I'm not the only one who voices this. I won't go deeper into the topic because people don't like criticism! But it is obvious that many people would like to see the PL-12 missile on the J-11A! ED could only benefit from this because we know very well that there will never be a real J-11A. Flaming Cliffs 3 is not about 100% fidelity, so I don't understand why you have to wait years for something that all Flanker fans are waiting for!

I would like someone from ED or DEKA to respond to my first post!

[BIGNEWY]

7 minutes ago, Fighterinterceptor said:

I have already presented all the information I knew! I wrote down all my arguments that I knew, it would simply be a development step, but everything has to be proven with secret military documents, which is impossible. The popularity of the game is evident, it can also be observed on YouTube that there are hardly any veteran YouTubers with Flanker. Only newbies make videos! I can list names who published a lot of video content in 2016, these YouTube channels are now extinct!

It seems that I'm just whining like a child, but if you observe this topic a little, you can see that I'm not the only one who voices this. I won't go deeper into the topic because people don't like criticism! But it is obvious that many people would like to see the PL-12 missile on the J-11A! ED could only benefit from this because we know very well that there will never be a real J-11A. Flaming Cliffs 3 is not about 100% fidelity, so I don't understand why you have to wait years for something that all Flanker fans are waiting for!

I would like someone from ED or DEKA to respond to my first post!

I will ask the teams to take a look, but can not promise any change. 

Regarding the AIM-120 we have done a lot of work on them over the years you can see some of this work in past newsletters and white papers. 

Please keep any feedback here constructive and lets not let a particular fandom be the influence, we can only use public verifiable data. 

thank you