not bugs F-16 incorrect configuration when launched in flight

[Temetre]

Bug: After being placed in the editor and launched with default in flight behaviour (6k feet, turning point), a player controlled F-16 is configured incorrectly for the stage of flight. Im not sure what exactly would be the intended configuration, but ill list things that I found seem wrong, and inconsistent with other modules:

1. Landing lights are enabled.

2. Backup radio on left console is off. 

3. HCMS symbology is off.

4. Stores config is always CAT 1, even with heavy load.

5. ECM power is set to on and XMIT 3, even without ECM pod.

6. Master cover is set to Norm. Considering this profile starts MASTER ARM on and generally combat ready, it should probably enable a covert mode.

Can I reproduce it 100%: Yes

How to reproduce/ description:  1. Create a mission in mission editor, place an F-16, set to 'CAP' mission, 'player' and 'in flight'. 

2. All the settings above should be in effect, regardless of payload. 

There is a ~2 second track in description, if required.

DCS Version: Both ST and MT preview, 2.8.4.39731

_F_16_wrongconfig.trk

Edited June 5, 2023 by Temetre

[Moonshine]

1. Landing lights to ON is correct as on takeoff, landing light should be used, the switch stays in the ON position until landed and switched to off or taxi upon leaving the runway. This is also affected by the option mentioned down below.

2. Radio on left console is OFF as its just the backup radio, during normal flight with 2 working radios, backup isnt mandatory

for the others: there is a section under "MISC" in the options that syncs cockpit controls with HOTAS controls upon mission start. so if you have your HMCS set to off, it will be off (mine is always on for example as i rarely turn the brightness knob to 0)

same goes with the XMIT buttons for the jammer and all controls mentioned by you (Master arm etc), mine are off by default at airstart, as i have the assigned hotas controls in the OFF position.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Moonshine

[Temetre]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Moonshine:

 

1. Landing lights to ON is correct as on takeoff, landing light should be used, the switch stays in the ON position until landed and switched to off or taxi upon leaving the runway

Ive reported an in flight start, at 6k altitude. Its not a runway start.

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Moonshine:

2. Radio on left console is OFF as its just the backup radio, during normal flight with 2 working radios, backup isnt mandatory

Ill clarify that point. But it seems to be standard procedure, especially during combat missions. 

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Moonshine:

for the others: there is a section under "MISC" in the options that syncs cockpit controls with HOTAS controls upon mission start. so if you have your HMCS set to off, it will be off (mine is always on for example as i rarely turn the brightness knob to 0)

same goes with the XMIT buttons for the jammer and all controls mentioned by you (Master arm etc), mine are off by default at airstart, as i have the assigned hotas controls in the OFF position.

I appreaciate that you want to help, but please mind this is a bug report. Talk about workarounds shouldnt really be here, the goal is to have ED lock into the problem, determine if its unintended, and fix if it is.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Temetre

[Moonshine]

I believe you did not understand anything i was just saying. 
Go to options, MISC and check for the checkbox „Synchronize Cockpit Controls with HOTAS Controls at Mission start“

because in all my hours in the viper i have never had any issue in air starts you seem to encounter.

maybe also check your mods if you use any.

 

also keep in mind, cockpit setup, switch position etc is highly dependent on the mission, situation and pilot, so having different "standard" ones for each possible variation of mission, loadout etc is just unreasonable. because what might be right for you, might not be right for me. ED going for the minimum needed here seems the right approach. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Moonshine

[Temetre]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Moonshine:

I believe you did not understand anything i was just saying. 
Go to options, MISC and check for the checkbox „Synchronize Cockpit Controls with HOTAS Controls at Mission start“

That has nothing to do with the bug im reporting. I have not bound those controls to HOTAS functions. And what you suggest would just hide the bug, because it overrides incorrect default settings.

If you dont understand what Im talking about: Depending on flight situation, be it cold start, hot ramp, runway or in flight, the plane is configured in different ways. Eg the RWR is off on a runway start, and on when starting in air. Same way a hot ramp start might have taxi lights on, or landing lights on runway start, and they should be off when starting a mission in the air.

Some of those default settings are correctly set for the F-16, but others are incorrect.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Temetre

[Moonshine]

There is no „incorrect“ default setting as youd have these switches put in the correct position if you have done a proper cold start. Since youre skipping all this and starting in the air, RWR is on. Now one can split hairs whether it should be on or off to begin with, however with the „minimum approach“ i mentioned, some assumptions had to be made. Now these dont seem to be to your liking, still does not make it a bug. While i agree the Cat 1 or Cat 3 could be simply solved depending on wing tanks equipped or not for example, still doesnt make it a bug.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Moonshine

[Temetre]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Moonshine:

There is no „incorrect“ default setting as youd have these switches put in the correct position if you have done a proper cold start. Since youre skipping all this and starting in the air, RWR is on. Now one can split hairs whether it should be on or off to begin with, however with the „minimum approach“ i mentioned, some assumptions had to be made. Now these dont seem to be to your liking, still does not make it a bug.

There is NO normal scenario where having master arm and ECM on, together with active landing lights is reasonable, not even the navigation lights should be on in such a situation. Nor is a fully loaded F-16 in CAT-1 following procedures. The backup radio interface is also a standard element in procedures, there is no reason to disable it in this setting.

Other planes, eg the Heatblur F-14, manage this perfectly fine, everything is there where you'd expect it logically. Im sure ED just didnt get to it yet with recent updates.

So as shown, these are very obvious point, its clearly not a fitting assumptoiin for a default setting. Its also irrelevant if you consider a cold start as "proper", thats your personal opinion and has no place in a bug report. Frankly, you did not engage with a single point I wrote (expect the backup radio, which was laughable), talked about your personal HOTAS setup workaround, and just shoved in your personal opinon about how to start and fly planes. At this point I can only assume you are trolling; so please stop that, I dont care about about arguments that dont affect the topic and these issues.

If ED offers the option, then it should work as expected, no matter what you think about it. Im sure they would agree with that.

Zitat

Now one can split hairs whether it should be on or off to begin with

This is exactly what the thread is about. Youre not helping anyone if you come into the thread telling me my point is irrelevant or can be avoided with an expensive HOTAS system.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Temetre

[Moonshine]

Might want to come down from your high horse a bit and look at it from a broader perspective. Either way, good luck with that report

[darkman222]

This is really splitting hair and we have a lot of other issues in the F16 already that should be adressed first, before we discuss whats correct or incorrect for an airborne spawn. Please dont eat up the time and resources from ED on that, before all the other more important stuff is fixed and adressed.

Just to begin with, how realistic is it that you spawn mid air in a jet?! If you did a "realistic" cold start, everything you were adressing should be set to your liking by yourself. Speaking of which is, for example, CAT I or III. Some real F16 pilots dont set it at all, because they dont like it, and JHMCS is the same thing.

Other different example is the audible morse code if you fly over a TACAN station. Its realistic that it is on. But its annoying. So I did the exact same thing as moonshine. Just bound it to a switch on my throttle that turns down the volume on spawn.

And in the F14 the gun is set to low and the master arm to off. Pretty annoying on a dogfight server. Bound it to the same two switches on the throttle, as for the TACAN sound, and enabling JHMCS, in the F16. Synced the controls on start, done. Saved time for people in the forum and for the ED developers.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by darkman222

[Temetre]

So your point is a) I shouldnt report the bug because youre afraid it takes away attention from other issues, and b) its not realistic to start in flight (as if a video game cold start is more realistic), and c) I should just buy an expensive hardware setup with all the switches to set my own defaults. Also d) its not always perfect.

And those are reasons a buggy/incomplete feature should be ignored? Im sure ED can decide for themselves how to arrange the priority of issues, they dont need you to police what gets posted. Nor does it make oversight of bug reports better when posts get spammed like this.

 

All of that under a pretty straightforward bug report. Jesus, is this forum always this toxic? Cant remember seeing reactions to bug reports like that anywhere else. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Temetre

[Moonshine]

it has been like this since Viper release. if it would really be such a big underlying issue, the viper bug section would be going nuts about this. the fact you seem to be the first to complain puts the relevancy of this "bug" compared to other bugs regarding radar, weapon systems, sensors etc. in perspective.

dont go around now playing the victim and calling everyone "toxic" just because you didnt get the reaction you were expecting.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Moonshine

[Temetre]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Moonshine:

it has been like this since Viper release. if it would really be such a big underlying issue, the viper bug section would be going nuts about this. the fact you seem to be the first to complain puts the relevancy of this "bug" compared to other bugs regarding radar, weapon systems, sensors etc. in perspective.

Sometimes small bugs get ignored because nobody posts them. Many just think "if this was an issue, it mustve been known", or "someone mustve reported it before". Or because most people are too lazy to report a problem. And just look at it: Now that someone posts it, we got two people even try to actively drown it. Frankly, that doesnt motivate me, or probably anyone looking at this, to write more reports.

 

You wanna know how development/reports/QA actually works? With public reports, you got mods/community managers/QA/devs decide if its a relevant issue to elevate, and if so, then verify if the behaviour is intended. If its considered to be a bug, or at least an improvement, then it gets put on issues lists' which is sorted by priority. 

There is no use in random people, with no connection to the development,  talking about how they "assume" the issue is unintended, or irrelevant. Thats just spamming whats supposed to be a cut and clear bug report with text, and frankly just feels toxic. Youre telling me im on a 'high horse', when youre trying to tell me me what bugs I should consider important and what not. Which couldnt be more irrelevant in a bug report.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Temetre

[darkman222]

You can do whatever you want and take up the time of whom ever you want. Youre a free man. Good luck with your bug report. But consider two things: Put things in relation to what major bugs in the F16 are still needed to be adressed and dont mistake your personal preferences or liking to how you want your plane to be set up as a bug.

And consider a third thing. Lots of your the "bugs" can be solved  by simply using the sync hotas at startup function. If you did so, you could have had a lot more time flying the jet compared to the time you have spent complaining. And as side effect you'd have all the functions you seem to want to have control over quickly accessible on your Hotas.

My time is too short for that minor topic. My participation is over. I will again focus on testing and reporting bugs like incorrect JHMCS locking behavior, Incorrect uncage of the AIM9X seeker head, Incorrect NO RAD function and symbology of HUD and FCR, G modelling for the F16 pilot, FCR Look down penalty, DCS not modelling pre-emptive flaring, just to mention a few.

Over and out.

Edited June 5, 2023 by darkman222

[Exorcet]

36 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

it has been like this since Viper release.

ED have made changes here actually. The lights being on when air starting was something added in later. It's a small thing, but I admit that it does bother me and I'd like to see it reverted to lights off.

Most of the time if I'm airstarting it's when I don't have time to do a full mission, or maybe I want to record a video. It's nice not having to worry about forgetting to switch off the lights while in the middle of a merge and ruining a dogfight video because you have nav lights on the middle of a fight.

[Temetre]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Exorcet:

ED have made changes here actually. The lights being on when air starting was something added in later. It's a small thing, but I admit that it does bother me and I'd like to see it reverted to lights off.

Most of the time if I'm airstarting it's when I don't have time to do a full mission, or maybe I want to record a video. It's nice not having to worry about forgetting to switch off the lights while in the middle of a merge and ruining a dogfight video because you have nav lights on the middle of a fight.

Yup, im pretty sure the behaviour changed over time, and there is clearly a configuraton set up by ED for air starts. Its just that it likely misses some switches, maybe just because systems were changed, but not the presets.

[Aquorys]

2 hours ago, Temetre said:

but ill list things that I found seem wrong

Yeah, there are a couple more, e.g. the lights are commonly weird on the ground as well as in the air, manual TF flyup should be on, you might want anti-ice on instead of auto when it's obviously freezing cold outside, I've seen the RWR off instead of on, and CM mode standby instead of man/semi/auto, etc.

Minor issues though, as those inaccuracies are easy to correct by flipping a couple switches (or some don't matter at all, because the related effects are not implemented), while some other problems are caused by more severe bugs that need developer action to resolve.

[Temetre]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Aquorys:

Yeah, there are a couple more, e.g. the lights are commonly weird on the ground as well as in the air, manual TF flyup should be on, you might want anti-ice on instead of auto when it's obviously freezing cold outside, I've seen the RWR off instead of on, and CM mode standby instead of man/semi/auto, etc.

Minor issues though, as those inaccuracies are easy to correct by flipping a couple switches (or some don't matter at all, because the related effects are not implemented), while some other problems are caused by more severe bugs that need developer action to resolve.

Thx for the additions. Yup! Relevant thing is just that the dev is aware of those issues.

Zitat

Put things in relation to what major bugs in the F16 are still needed to be adressed and dont mistake your personal preferences

Im reporting what I think is a bug, Im not telling ED how relevant the issue is. I even mentioned that im not sure whats their intentional preference, so I just list things that look out of place to me.

So, with all due respect, can you take your own advice? Can you stop telling us about how relevant you think the problem is or isnt? This is going in circles and makes the bug report ever messier.

Zitat

or liking to how you want your plane to be set up as a bug

Ive listed breaches in procedure and illogical setups. If you fly into combat, master arm on, with landing lights enabled... then that would be your preference. In reality, you'd also get quite an earful about what youve just done.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Temetre

[Aquorys]

6 hours ago, Temetre said:

If you fly into combat, master arm on, with landing lights enabled...

The landing and taxi lights go off automatically during landing gear retraction, independent of the switch position

[darkman222]

You could have had an easier time. My predictions how ED will react to this were on point

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by darkman222

[Temetre]

Am 6.6.2023 um 11:46 schrieb darkman222:

You could have had an easier time. My predictions how ED will react to this were on point

Well, that mentality is probably why this game is so buggy and unpolished. Something is obviously wrong, sticks out like a sore thumb, and they go "clearly not a bug". Not gonna bother with rebug reports in the future, looks like a waste of time. Ill stick to 3rd party devs who care about polish.

But nah, you saying I shouldnt report this issue because you think theres bigger problems was still an really dumb thing to say.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Temetre

[darkman222]

2 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Ill stick to 3rd party devs who care about polish.

The F16 is far away from a point you'd even think of polish, is what I am saying.

4 minutes ago, Temetre said:

you saying I shouldnt report this issue because you think theres bigger problems was still an really dumb thing to say.

I did not say you should not report. I was saying to put the level of urgency it in perspective.

4 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Ill stick to 3rd party devs who care about polish.

Do so. And dont forget to tell heatblur devs that the F14 pilot cant be shot at although it has been requested for ages now because it is highly relevant for competitive dogfight events.

[Temetre]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb darkman222:

The F16 is far away from a point you'd even think of polish, is what I am saying.

I did not say you should not report. I was saying to put the level of urgency it in perspective.

Read what you wrote; you told me im splitting hairs and how its unrealistic to spawn the jet midair and whatever, which is just nonsense. It reads just contrarian, trying to fight the relevance of the bug report for some reason. When nobody said that this is a high priority issue anyway.

Tbf maybe I shouldnt blame ED for people in the forum being toxic about simple reports. Then again, its weird they call this "not a bug", as if they intentionally set bad settings?

vor 24 Minuten schrieb darkman222:

Do so. And dont forget to tell heatblur devs that the F14 pilot cant be shot at although it has been requested for ages now because it is highly relevant for competitive dogfight events.

I think the damage model of the F-14 is about a million years ahead of F-16/18. And more concerning, the roadmap for those two planes isnt even listing any damage model improvements.

Frankly, it sounds like we both want the Viper the best it can be. So why even argue about this? This was supposed to a be a small bug report just to have the issue logged, nothing more.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Temetre

[darkman222]

40 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Frankly, it sounds like we both want the Viper the best it can be.

Everybody hopes for. With obviously different priorities. Yep. I was just responding because I was quoted. Your issue is logged and registered by ED. Now its in their hands to deal with it. Peace man.

[Temetre]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb darkman222:

Everybody hopes for. With obviously different priorities. Yep. I was just responding because I was quoted. Your issue is logged and registered by ED. Now its in their hands to deal with it. Peace man.

I mean if its actually logged then im happy. All I wanted. Well see I guess.

[Lace]

I'm not sure why this request has triggered such a negative response from some people.

1. Air starts are perfectly valid for time-constrained training purposes.  Sometimes you just want to practice a particular element of the aircraft and don't need the cold-start reps.

2. Not everyone maps every switch to their HOTAS or has a physical simpit.  The whole point of clicky cockpits is that you don't need to map and remember everything, you can just click on the controls as required, so the 'sync with HOTAS' argument is not necessarily valid.

3. Just because there are other higher priority issues with the Viper, does not mean we shouldn't raise these smaller issues too.  It is something which has annoyed me slightly.  Not enough to report it, but it is a little frustrating sometimes.

4. Since not everyone can 'sync with HOTAS', then all things being equal, surely it would make more sense to have these controls correctly set for those who can't? i.e. Master Arm SAFE, HMCS bright, correct CAT I/III config, etc.  Those who do 'sync with HOTAS' won't see any difference, those who don't will have a properly configured jet.

Finally - if any real Viper pilots can confirm, I'm slightly sceptical about the landing light being left on. I know it will switch itself off on gear retraction, but I would still turn the switch off, as any failure in the auto power off would result in an overheated and burned out lamp by the time it came to landing time when it might be needed.  I don't really see any reason why it should be left in the LANDING position, rather than OFF.  As a pilot and an engineer, I have learned, through experience, not to rely on interlocks, as they can and do fail.