MiG-29A: EOS lock issue

[Pavlin_33]

The other day I could not achieve a lock using EOS on a high and cold M-2000C. There was a strong return (4 bars), but the system could not lock the target. I am not able to provide the track as it's corrupt for some reason. This happened in multiplayer.

First attempt to lock:

Last attempt to lock:

Outside view:


P.S. Mirage was accelerating through trans-sonic speed range, so I am fairly confident he had his burner on.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Pavlin_33

[Temetre]

Is that 32km? Thats an insane range for EOS, even with how broken and magical it is in DCS.

IIRC the Mig-29G in reality had an EOS locking range of 6-8 miles or so, with way more limitations. During evaluation by the US they considered the IRST capability basically useless.

So I would hope that its just way too far away for an IRST lock, and not a bug.^^

Edited June 9, 2023 by Temetre

[Pavlin_33]

1 hour ago, Temetre said:

Is that 32km? Thats an insane range for EOS, even with how broken and magical it is in DCS.

IIRC the Mig-29G in reality had an EOS locking range of 6-8 miles or so, with way more limitations. During evaluation by the US they considered the IRST capability basically useless.

So I would hope that its just way too far away for an IRST lock, and not a bug.^^

 

Yeah some things are better and some worse in DCS than the real airplane, but that's not the point.

The issue is that it can't lock, but it can detect. There's no max detection / max locking distance for the EOS.

Real EOS can track up to 15km in a look up, ie. against the sky.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Pavlin_33

[BlackPixxel]

@Pavlin_33

You have changed the azimuth scanzone to the left. But the real MiG-29 can not really slew the azimuth scanzone like the Su-27 can, so it was removed from DCS in a half-assed way.

You are still able to change the scanzone left/right, but you can not really lock targets (the position that your cursor points at and the target position are then offset by 30°).

 

In the real MiG-29 the azimuth scanzone for the IRST does the following: It cuts the regular scanzone in half and only scans either the left or the right half (-30° to 0° or 0° to 30°) depending on the scanzone selection. This doubles the refresh rate. It also means that the other half of the HUD will show no targets in that case.

[Pavlin_33]

51 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

@Pavlin_33

 

You are still able to change the scanzone left/right, but you can not really lock targets (the position that your cursor points at and the target position are then offset by 30°).

This part applies to DCS?

If yes, does this mean that the lock would have worked if I moved the scan zone to center?

[Seaeagle]

8 hours ago, Temetre said:

Is that 32km? Thats an insane range for EOS, even with how broken and magical it is in DCS.

IIRC the Mig-29G in reality had an EOS locking range of 6-8 miles or so, with way more limitations. During evaluation by the US they considered the IRST capability basically useless.

So I would hope that its just way too far away for an IRST lock, and not a bug.^^

 

I think you are mistaken EOS range for the range of the laser rangefinder,  which was some 6-8 kilometers. IR range is highly dependant on aspect and there is something to suggest that the real system(on baseline 9-12) didn't really work well(or at all) in front aspect. But for a look-up situation against a rear aspect target in full burner(optimal condition) 6-8 miles would seem extremely short. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Seaeagle

[Temetre]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Seaeagle:

I think you are mistaken EOS range for the range of the laser rangefinder,  which was some 6-8 kilometers. IR range is highly dependant on aspect and there is something to suggest that the real system(on baseline 9-12) didn't really work well(or at all) in front aspect. But for a look-up situation against a rear aspect target in full burner(optimal condition) 6-8 miles would seem extremely short. 

Oh, can you lock without the range measurement? Tbh its been a really long time ive used the system, I just remember it being kinda whack.

edit: Ive just given the SU27 a test flight. The EO doesnt even seem to show any targets if it doesnt know range? As soon as they appear, they are shown by range.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Temetre

[Seaeagle]

10 hours ago, Temetre said:

Oh, can you lock without the range measurement? Tbh its been a really long time ive used the system, I just remember it being kinda whack.

edit: Ive just given the SU27 a test flight. The EO doesnt even seem to show any targets if it doesnt know range? As soon as they appear, they are shown by range.

 

The EOS is set up to use the laser as primary range meassuring tool with the radar as alternative, in case the target is outside laser range. So the EOS range as such is not limited by the range of the laser component

[BigBorner]

Am 10.6.2023 um 08:55 schrieb Seaeagle:

The EOS is set up to use the laser as primary range meassuring tool with the radar as alternative, in case the target is outside laser range. So the EOS range as such is not limited by the range of the laser component

That means, If being locked via IRST, my laser Warner would be bitching? 

[Seaeagle]

5 hours ago, BigBorner said:

That means, If being locked via IRST, my laser Warner would be bitching? 

What aircraft with a laser warning system are you flying?

Anyway, its been a long time since I studied the MiG-29 systems in detail and I cannot remember exactly how the laser is employed for range finding with the EOS. But I would say that IRST lock as such has nothing to do with the laser rangefinder - an IR seeker of a missile also locks the target, but has no laser for meaassuring range, so it would be down to a sufficient heat "signature", while the laser component of the EOS is just for figuring out when a selected weapon is within range of the target.  

 

[Ironhand]

On 6/9/2023 at 4:11 PM, Temetre said:

Oh, can you lock without the range measurement? Tbh its been a really long time ive used the system, I just remember it being kinda whack.

edit: Ive just given the SU27 a test flight. The EO doesnt even seem to show any targets if it doesnt know range? As soon as they appear, they are shown by range.

 

Yes. Without a lock, how does the laser know what to measure the range to? The lock comes first and, then, range gets measured. Not sure about the MiG-29’s laser but according to the Su-27 real world manual, if the target is < 1600 m away, the laser is the primary tool for measurement and uses a 2Hz emission frequency. If > 1600 m, it plays a supportive role at .25Hz. In that situation, the radar, in “quasi-search” mode, provides the primary range measurement. I would imagine that the MiG’s system would be something similar.

@BigBorner Whether or not it would trip the warning would depend on the frequency range it scans, I would imagine. In the sim, I don’t know if the laser use in the MiGs or Sukhois is even modeled separately. All you see in the cockpit is a range measurement.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Ironhand

[BigBorner]

@Seaeagle

KA-50 III 

@Ironhand

I will give it a try. 
 

I mean, the laser warner is even Bitching sometimes about being locked up by a fishbed. 

[Pavlin_33]

14 hours ago, Ironhand said:

...Not sure about the MiG-29’s laser but according to the Su-27 real world manual, if the target is < 1600 m away, the laser is the primary tool for measurement and uses a 2Hz emission frequency. If > 1600 m, it plays a supportive role at .25Hz. In that situation, the radar, in “quasi-search” mode, provides the primary range measurement. I would imagine that the MiG’s system would be something similar...

MiG-29B, switches from 0.25Hz to 2Hz at 1500m.
Depending on the target aspect, meteo conditions and state of the laser the measurements are available from 200m to 6.5Km, for airborne targets.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Pavlin_33

[BigBorner]

@Seaeagle @Ironhand

 

Findigs are as follows: 

KA-50 III Laser warner starts whining as soon as you get near the helicopter with activated IRST. No need to even lock the target. Tested with MIG-29G and SU33, yesterday on current OB. 

[Seaeagle]

4 hours ago, BigBorner said:

@Seaeagle @Ironhand

Findigs are as follows: 

KA-50 III Laser warner starts whining as soon as you get near the helicopter with activated IRST. No need to even lock the target. Tested with MIG-29G and SU33, yesterday on current OB. 

Interesting find  .

But I guess thats down to simplification in DCS. The laser should not be active without a target and even then I suspect that it will only be on for a brief burst and certainly not continously - IIRC if you leave the laser on in the Ka-50, it shuts down automatically after a short time to prevent it from overheating. 

[BigBorner]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Seaeagle:

Interesting find  .

But I guess thats down to simplification in DCS. The laser should not be active without a target and even then I suspect that it will only be on for a brief burst and certainly not continously - IIRC if you leave the laser on in the Ka-50, it shuts down automatically after a short time to prevent it from overheating. 

Maybe its being modelled as some sort of weird LIDAR? 

[Ironhand]

3 hours ago, BigBorner said:

Maybe its being modelled as some sort of weird LIDAR? 

The results feel more like the discovery of a bug than a modeling of reality. EOS itself is passive and I doubt that the laser would be randomly lasing the sky. Even if it were, your warning should only go off, when it randomly hit you.

FWIW, the Su-27 manual makes it sound as if the laser rangefinder engages after target lock. “Upon locking an aerial target…the laser rangefinder is engaged…” Further, it notes some time limits on its use.

@Pavlin_33 Have you checked to see if BlackPixxel’s explanation of why you couldn’t obtain an EOS lock was correct?

Edited June 15, 2023 by Ironhand

[Pavlin_33]

4 hours ago, Ironhand said:

 

@Pavlin_33 Have you checked to see if BlackPixxel’s explanation of why you couldn’t obtain an EOS lock was correct?

 

Ah, only now I read it. Ok so probably the issue was the side slew

[BigBorner]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Ironhand:

The results feel more like the discovery of a bug than a modeling of reality. EOS itself is passive and I doubt that the laser would be randomly lasing the sky. Even if it were, your warning should only go off, when it randomly hit you.

FWIW, the Su-27 manual makes it sound as if the laser rangefinder engages after target lock. “Upon locking an aerial target…the laser rangefinder is engaged…” Further, it notes some time limits on its use.

 

Maybe its worthwile to save the track and make a Bug Report. 

[Ironhand]

8 hours ago, BigBorner said:

Maybe its worthwile to save the track and make a Bug Report. 

Yes, it would.

[Ironhand]

On 6/15/2023 at 7:02 PM, Pavlin_33 said:

Ah, only now I read it. Ok so probably the issue was the side slew

It is definitely the side slew that caused the lock issue. Centered, there is no problem. Slewed right or left, there is no ability to lock as BlackPixxel stated.