Moving the newly added German radar sites to their correct historical location

[Night Owl]

The newly added German Mammut radar sites are an awesome addition, they look nice! 

However, it is a bit unfortunate that they were not placed at the historical location of German radar sites. There are many radar sites for which the exact historical location is known, we have actually research these precise positions for many of them for our missions. I'd love for the radar sites on the map to be moved to the correct locations. 

As an example below is Douvres radar station. This one is very famous, since it was held for a long time by the Germans after they were encircled at the first day of the landing. Today, there is a museum there, and most bunkers that had the radar antennas are still visible, even on google earth. Yet on the DCS map, the radar was placed on the nearby coast, 5 km from the correct site. See the pictures below for an illustration: 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Night Owl

[tigayot228]

I find good information in website here:

http://www.atlantikwall.co.uk/atlantikwall/fn_gr_wndouvres2.php

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by tigayot228

[Spuks]

Edited June 17, 2023 by Spuks

[birkenmoped]

I too was happy about the Mammut model, but it would indeed be nice if the placement would at least be correct. How about a free placement model? In addition, I would like to note that I have not found any Mammut positions where three pieces stood next to each other?!

 

But Night Owl... I can't find any information about a "MAMMUT" in Douvres? On the photo that tigayot228 had uploaded (the long shadow is of an Wassermann S) and the site plans of Spuks there was only one Wassermann S, Freya and 2 Würzburg Riesen on this site.

Check also: http://www.atlantikwall-frankreich.de/3_aok_7/kva_h/kvgr_caen/kvugr_riva_bella/stp_douvres/stp_douvres.html

Auf diesem weitläufigen Gelände das sich aus den zwei Stellungen Distelfink I und II zusammen setzt waren neben dem heute dort ausgestellten Würzburg Gerät auch ein Wassermanngerät, sowie zwei Freye Geräte vertreten. Heute ist nur ein kleiner Teil des Areals zu besichtigen. Darunter der Jägerleitstand, ein Luftwaffenregelbau des Typs L 479. Nicht zugänglich hingegen ist der Unterstand für Ortsfeste Funkmessgeräte ein Luftwaffenregelbau des Typs L 486 sowie der Bunker des Wassermanngerätes, ein L 480 (Luftwaffenregelbau)

Translation:
On this extensive area, which consists of the two positions Distelfink I and II, there were also a Wassermanngerät and two Freya devices in addition to the Würzburg device exhibited there today. Today only a small part of the area can be visited. Among them is the fighter control post, a Luftwaffe control post of type L 479. Not accessible, however, is the shelter for fixed radio measuring equipment, a Luftwaffe control post of type L 486, as well as the bunker of the Wassermanngerät, a L 480 (Luftwaffe control post).

 

But I found these Mammut positions, which were in the map area (see table below).

Whereas our model (with 4 vertical struts) would have to be an "Luftwaffe Mammut" and thus only the FuMG designated positions (table) would come into question.

Abschnitt AOK 15 / KVA C
FuMO	Stp 265 Lungenkraut (Le Nocquet/Equihen)	FuMO 51 Mammut-Gustav
MKB	Stp 164a Sickingen (La Dreve)	FuMO 51 Mammut-Gustav
FuMG "Wels"	Stp 178 Kellergeist (Mt. Plouvin)	FMG 41 G (cF) Mammut Caesar (Lw)
Abschnitt AOK 15 / KVA E2
FuMG "Dickhäuter"	Die 010 (Dieppe)	FMG 41 G (cB) Mammut F
Abschnitt AOK 15 / KVA F
FuMO	Fe 08 (Fecamp)	FuMO 52 Mammut Caesar
Abschnitt AOK 7 / KVA J2
FuMO	WN 345 HagueII (Hameau des Asselins)	FuMO 52 Mammut Cäsar
FuMG "Ammer"	WN 364 (Jobourg)	FMG 41 G (cF) Mammut Caesar oder Mammut (cB) Friedrich
FuMG "Pferd"	Pferd (Predefin)	FMG 41 G (cB) Mammut F

 

Sources:
http://www.atlantikwall.info/radar/france/rf_.htm
https://www.relikte.info/ and http://www.atlantikwall-frankreich.de

Edited June 19, 2023 by birkenmoped

[birkenmoped]

Snippets from map: https://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/pdf-hell/map-Flugmldeeinstz-OrgPlngn.pdf

Ref. 210W: "Flugmeldeeinsatz- und Organisationsplanung", Zeichgs-Nr. 44/20-1-A, GKdos, OKL. Gen.-Nafü, 1. Abt. III. Map is dated 20 June 1944. [file size: 63 MB; good-but-lower-resolution file is here, 26 MB]. Source: BArch-MA/BAMA file nr. (Signatur) RL 2-V/9.
Note: this map has the same background map as ref. 210V, but with some different mark-ups. Map covers area of northern Britain to northwestern Egypt. Map is marked with locations of Wassermann (L/M/S), Fu.MG (nachtjagdfähig), Mammut, Freya (+ An , + An & Gemse, + An & Kuh, + Kuh & Gemse, + Fahrstuhl), Würzburg (A-D, Riese, Riese + Gema Zusatz), and also boundaries of Zusatzzahlgebiete, Jagdtrapezbegrenzung.
Map size: 6x5 (WxH) A4-sheets. Map scale 1:2500000.

Source: https://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/hellschreiber-modes-other-hell-RadNav.htm#top-of-page

[Spuks]

On 6/18/2023 at 10:34 PM, birkenmoped said:

there was only one Wassermann S, Freya and 2 Würzburg Riesen on this site

Yes you're right.  Any way if there is going to be development of radar station sites, Distelfunk should be done definitely.  What about Mammut, as stated in wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammut_radar) this radar foundation located near Fecamp.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Spuks

[birkenmoped]

I don't know if I understand the last statement regarding Fecamp, maybe something is lost in translation?

In Fecamp there is only ONE foundation for ONE mammoth in the naval variant (FMO51/52). Especially since, according to Wikepedia, only the foundation was there (presumably until the end of the war), but without the radar. The naval variant has "only" three masts, as already mentioned.

Concrete emplacement built at Cap Fagnet, Fécamp, Normandy, where the Mammut was never erected - Wikipedia/Wikimedia
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammut_radar - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blockhaus_Fécamp_(2)_0017.JPG

FMO51/52 „Seetakt“, Kriegsmarine-Ausführung mit drei Masten / FMO51/52 "Seetakt", Kriegsmarine version with three masts - Wikipedia/Wikimedia
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammut_(Radar) - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mammut_Small_hoarding_radar_illustration.png

 

The Wijk aan Zee Mammut antenna standing on top of a V 143 type bunker. This bunker concept was especially dedicated to facilitate naval (KM) Mammut systems - Courtesy David & Vincent Kossen
Source: https://www.cdvandt.org/mammut-wassermann-part2.htm

 

The Luftwaffe variant (FuMG-41/42) with four masts, as in the new DCS model, should have stood in the "Normandy 2.0" map area only at the above mentioned positions (FuMG).

FuMG-41/42 „Mammut“, Luftwaffenausführung mit vier Masten / FuMG-41/42 "Mammut", Luftwaffe version with four masts - Wikipedia/Wikimedia
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammut_(Radar) / https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mammut_Hoarding_radar_illustration.png

 

Antenne des Mammut-Gerätes / Antenna of the Mammut device - Christian Wolff
Source: https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/11.ancient/karte002.de.html

 

Greetings birkenmoped

[Night Owl]

Am 18.6.2023 um 21:34 schrieb birkenmoped:

I too was happy about the Mammut model, but it would indeed be nice if the placement would at least be correct. How about a free placement model? In addition, I would like to note that I have not found any Mammut positions where three pieces stood next to each other?!

Yes you are right, the composition is another issue. Most of the sites had Wassermann systems ir even onlx Freyas, Mammut was quite rare, only few sites had it. As well as the number of individual arrays like you correctly point out. 

I ommitted this aspect from my wish because for me the correct historical position is the most important thing, and it would also require way less work than to make the individual sites more correct in their composition, since this would need completely new 3D models.

Basically I am wishing for little things at a time to have more chances of success I am conscient that we will probably never have all the different historical Wassermann L, Wassermann S, Calais, Mammut, etc. models. So from a historical mission maker's point of view I'd rather have a mammut at the historical location of a Wassermann, than none there at all.

I think the first step should be to move them to the historical locations (of any type of bigger radar like Wassermann), and then maybe at some point later add different 3D models. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Night Owl

[303_Kermit]

+1 

[303_HOLY]

+1

 

[Night Owl]

Am 20.6.2023 um 14:27 schrieb birkenmoped:

n Fecamp there is only ONE foundation for ONE mammoth in the naval variant (FMO51/52). Especially since, according to Wikepedia, only the foundation was there (presumably until the end of the war), but without the radar. The naval variant has "only" three masts, as already mentioned.

I am not sure if this Mammut was terminated or not. Do you have another more thrustworthy source than wikipedia saying that it never got errected? The Central Interpretation Unit's Coastal Radar Stations intelligence document produced in march 1944 in preparation for D-Day mentions that Mammut as primary target but doesn't mention that it was not finished. So either they didn't see that the aerials were missing on their recon photographs, or the wikipedia entry is wrong.

[birkenmoped]

@Night Owl

Hi Night Owl!

No, I couldn't find any really clear sources.

The German Wikipedia entry on Cape Fagnet (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kap_Fagnet) goes in the same direction as the English entry, but it also mentions a possible reason why the Mammoth may not have been built and/or used...!

[...]
Bunkers
In 1942, in anticipation of an Allied invasion, the Cape was fortified by the German occupying forces with bunkers as part of the Atlantic Wall. The control center of the Würzburg radar station and several smaller bunkers can be found on the cape today. three large concrete pedestals, which were used for a 300 km radar system of the Mammut type radar system. However, this was never put into operation, as German troops had to withdraw in August 1944.
[...]

However, many websites dealing with the Atlantic Wall (https://www.atlantikwall-frankreich.de/2_aok_15/kva_f/1_fecamp/fe_08/fe_08.html , https://www.gyges.dk/FuMO locations and types Channel ver 5.pdf , https://www.geschichtsspuren.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59663&hilit=fecamp#p59663 ) list various radio measuring and locating devices under "AOK 15 - KVA F - KVGr Fecamp - Fe 08", e.g. Würzburg Riese, Freya and also a Mammut V143 device.

Edited November 10, 2023 by birkenmoped

[Night Owl]

@birkenmoped

Great, thanks. 
 

I read some more in the CIU's enemy radar intelligence briefing, and on a target drawing dating from march 1944 I can find the pedestals of the Mammut-Seetakt drawn as a primary target, but with a small note U/C, meaning under construction. Since they still included it in their primary target list for the preparation for D-day they probably assumed it probable that it would be finished soon, but it may still not have been. 

I guess we can't be completely sure for that one. Ah well, there are enough other Mammut sites on the map to use 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Night Owl

[Night Owl]

The players in this thread might be interested in this, I have made a reference mission with all the 154 radars on the map with their exact position and radar type as described in the CIU's Rhubarb XII Appendix from April 1944. 

Obviously we don't have all those radar types in DCS, but it may still help people in making historical mission scenarios 

German radar sites.miz

[birkenmoped]

Hi, during further "research" I found the following illustration/map:

 

Picture description says: British map of the German radio measuring positions (Channel and Normandy), status: 20 days before the invasion. * = unrecognized positions.

If I see it correctly, then a mammoth is registered for Fecamp... 20 days before D-Day

Source/Quelle: Die deutschen Funkmeßverfahren bis 1945 - Fritz Trenkle

Edited November 14, 2023 by birkenmoped

[stuart666]

If its of any interest, I upped my interpretation of German air defences and radar sites on the files section.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3333865/

If anyone hasnt yet discovered it, After the Battle publications (if you read a lot of history, you will know who these guys are) did a book on coastal radar sites. Doesnt include the inland ones much, but its still well worth getting. I wouldnt have pinpointed the locations of half of them if it wasnt for this book.

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/German-Coastal-Radar-Stations-Hardback/p/20966