ChaosRifle Posted June 24, 2023 Posted June 24, 2023 (edited) Better modding support would be nice. We are playing a video game simulator of hypothetical wars at hypothetical years, it would be nice to be able to change the available weapons of the jet. My understanding of the modding structure is that while we can mod the lua file to place stores on the jet, but not the DLL's managing the stores page on the DDI. For example, the navy went through the process of designing, testing, and integrating the AGM-154B for the hornet, but never actually acquired the munitions in arsenal for the aircraft. The planes, as I hear it, are capable of using them, if the navy, or another country, ordered those munitions. Another example is APKWS. Hornets can carry them as of ~2018, the marines integrated them and completed operational trials. Again, I would like to be able to mod this in to allow for missions post-version-date of the hornet we have(2007)... IE a war in 2020, or 2025. Both of these examples should be possible to enable via mission editor, IMHO. I would like to be able to make missions that may be alternate timelines, but to do so requires either official support (would be cool to have a tick-box in the editor), or, more reasonably, better modding support to be able to make this change, and any others other players might want, ourselves. Edited June 25, 2023 by ChaosRifle adding another example. 2
SkateZilla Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) On 6/24/2023 at 5:21 PM, ChaosRifle said: Better modding support would be nice. We are playing a video game simulator of hypothetical wars at hypothetical years, it would be nice to be able to change the available weapons of the jet. My understanding of the modding structure is that while we can mod the lua file to place stores on the jet, but not the DLL's managing the stores page on the DDI. For example, the navy went through the process of designing, testing, and integrating the AGM-154B for the hornet, but never actually acquired the munitions in arsenal for the aircraft. The planes, as I hear it, are capable of using them, if the navy, or another country, ordered those munitions. Another example is APKWS. Hornets can carry them as of ~2018, the marines integrated them and completed operational trials. Again, I would like to be able to mod this in to allow for missions post-version-date of the hornet we have(2007)... IE a war in 2020, or 2025. Both of these examples should be possible to enable via mission editor, IMHO. I would like to be able to make missions that may be alternate timelines, but to do so requires either official support (would be cool to have a tick-box in the editor), or, more reasonably, better modding support to be able to make this change, and any others other players might want, ourselves. Soooo, Just because they tested it on the aircraft does not mean that the software required made it to the fleet. Plus the weapon was never mass produced. AGM-154B was never part of the SCS-20A A1, X or 21X 23X 25X OFP, as the Missile was never deployed to fleet, so there was no need to include it in the OFP. APKWS was Added in the last OFP for the Legacy Hornet (SCS-25X) in 2016. They are not part of the stores system for SCS-21A, A1, X, 21X or 23X OFP. While they are simply plug and play, for most aircraft. Modern DFCS Aircraft (A-10C, F/A-18C, F-16C, F-15x, etc) need to have it in the stores management as the weights are different, and the FCS Limiter is governed by the computer, which takes into account stores weight. Having 2 wings full of rockets that the computer assumes weights 13 lbs each when they actually weigh ~33 lbs each and the CoG is Shifted on them, times 7 per LAU-68, x however many are loaded on each wing, Causes Incorrect Trimming, Incorrect G-Limit, Structural and Handling issues. The Computer knowing those rockets are equipped with the 20lb guidance insert adjusts the flight envelope and g-limit per the extra weight. Edited August 9, 2023 by SkateZilla 5 Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs
ChaosRifle Posted August 9, 2023 Author Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) the specific weapons were examples, either way, its a hole in the capability of modding as a whole, as I currently understand it. We should be enabling modders, not restricting them. I could just as easily say stingers for the apache, but that was not the point. Edited August 9, 2023 by ChaosRifle 2
Jackjack171 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 8 hours ago, ChaosRifle said: the specific weapons were examples, either way, its a hole in the capability of modding as a whole, as I currently understand it. We should be enabling modders, not restricting them. I could just as easily say stingers for the apache, but that was not the point. There already are plenty of MODS out there, so no one's restricting anything. You speak of using the Mission editor but that's not for modding, it's for editing! Don't conflate the two. Users are free to mod at-will! Just not within the sim itself. There is a specific weapons mod somewhere in the User files. Take a look at the MODS section and you may find what you are looking for. 3 DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!
SkateZilla Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 10 hours ago, ChaosRifle said: the specific weapons were examples, either way, its a hole in the capability of modding as a whole, as I currently understand it. We should be enabling modders, not restricting them. I could just as easily say stingers for the apache, but that was not the point. Both Situations and the "Stinger" situation your describing is not asking ED to allow Modding, it's asking ED to integrate weapons into the aircraft that doesn't have them. 5 Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs
ChaosRifle Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 4 hours ago, Jackjack171 said: There already are plenty of MODS out there, so no one's restricting anything. You speak of using the Mission editor but that's not for modding, it's for editing! Don't conflate the two. Users are free to mod at-will! Just not within the sim itself. There is a specific weapons mod somewhere in the User files. Take a look at the MODS section and you may find what you are looking for. You can't talk about mods without having the context of why you would want them. Sorry I bothered to explain why I cared. I am not suggesting mods are mission editing, nor am I suggesting modding should be doable via the editor. I am suggesting this because after doing extensive research into the subject for writing my own, and after consulting several other mod authors, the capability does not exist due to a limitation in the way modding is currently done. What I am asking for does not exist, because it can not exist, under the current system. 1 hour ago, SkateZilla said: Both Situations and the "Stinger" situation your describing is not asking ED to allow Modding, it's asking ED to integrate weapons into the aircraft that doesn't have them. No, what I am asking for is modding capability to the weapons systems on the aircraft that already are implemented as modules, which currently, is impossible to do as it is embedded in a DLL. We can make new aircraft with new armaments, but not change existing aircraft armaments (at least according to every modder and dataminer I have spoken to, as well as my own research into this). The examples I gave were examples as to why someone may want this: adding functionality that should be there but is not (ie apache stingers)or in order to make a mission file in an alternate timeline (ie 2020 hornet) (besides, its not like we have a screwed up timeline in DCS already with the times selected for various aircraft to already be time travelling, whats another year or two) By all means, if you know how to do in the current version of the game, please, do inform me of my (and many of the modding community) mistakes. Currently, this modding capability simply does not exist though as I, and many in the DCS modding community, understand it.
SkateZilla Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, ChaosRifle said: You can't talk about mods without having the context of why you would want them. Sorry I bothered to explain why I cared. I am not suggesting mods are mission editing, nor am I suggesting modding should be doable via the editor. I am suggesting this because after doing extensive research into the subject for writing my own, and after consulting several other mod authors, the capability does not exist due to a limitation in the way modding is currently done. What I am asking for does not exist, because it can not exist, under the current system. No, what I am asking for is modding capability to the weapons systems on the aircraft that already are implemented as modules, which currently, is impossible to do as it is embedded in a DLL. We can make new aircraft with new armaments, but not change existing aircraft armaments (at least according to every modder and dataminer I have spoken to, as well as my own research into this). The examples I gave were examples as to why someone may want this: adding functionality that should be there but is not (ie apache stingers)or in order to make a mission file in an alternate timeline (ie 2020 hornet) (besides, its not like we have a screwed up timeline in DCS already with the times selected for various aircraft to already be time travelling, whats another year or two) By all means, if you know how to do in the current version of the game, please, do inform me of my (and many of the modding community) mistakes. Currently, this modding capability simply does not exist though as I, and many in the DCS modding community, understand it. Same Answer, The Systems are in Compiled and Protected Files, as they are part of a Licensed product. If you want to add weapons, you need to not only copy/paste the weapons code to the aircraft's LUA (which isn't "modding", it's simply pasting / adding). You have to Build the Systems, and include it via LUA System Hook. It's not impossible, everyone just wants to be able to Copy / Paste the loadout line to the Pylon data and have it work. If You want to Add a Weapon that's not part of the Avionics DLL, You have the script the interface and system for that weapon, and script the LUA to load an additional system during the Cockpit initialization. If there's no public data on the interface and system, then now you know why ED didn't include it. And Good Luck finding public data on AGM-154B Interface w/ Hornets, as it was never integrated, and never part of the tech manuals. It's the same for adding Fantasy Weapons (ie AIM-54C to the F-15C/E), the system in their OFP doesn't exist, nor does any public data on the interface, So if you expect to drop 1 line of code to add it to the loadout screen, and for the Cockpit systems to recognize it and automatically know how to transfer data fire and control said weapon, then that's not going to work. You guys are trying to Build a Bridge without building the support beams first. So Again, it's not a "Modding Problem", it's a "You want ED to do it for you" problem. I've Coded and Compiled Addon Systems for the F/A-18C to not only add weapons, but Pylons on top of the existing aircraft's and replace the SMS w/ a new SMS Screen. So it's not an impossible task. But if you goal is to addon 2020 Capabilities to a specific aircraft, I doubt you'd find the public data to code any of the systems or interfaces, Especially if your are trying to add 2020 capabilities to the Hornet, Eagle/Strike Eagle, Viper, or Apache. Edited August 10, 2023 by SkateZilla 6 Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs
ChaosRifle Posted August 11, 2023 Author Posted August 11, 2023 12 hours ago, SkateZilla said: I've Coded and Compiled Addon Systems for the F/A-18C to not only add weapons, but Pylons on top of the existing aircraft's and replace the SMS w/ a new SMS Screen. would you be willing to share information regarding this and possibly reference materials? This is news to me (and several other modders).
SkateZilla Posted August 11, 2023 Posted August 11, 2023 I'm sorry but the team that I did the work for has asked not to share. However, the process notated above can serve as a guide on how to do it generally, there are already mod-teams that do add systems in a similar fashion. One would need to be proficient in both LUA and VB Coding, as well as being able to script links between the main system hooks and new ones. Having access to the cockpit model is also required for adding panels/displays (or just replace it entirely w/ your own). Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs
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