LGB not falling on designated moving tgt

[razorseal]

Not sure what I'm doing wrong. I see the LGB is following my moving target on the TPOD and laser is firing. However I'm not hitting the target. CDES and PTRK are both boxed in and TPOD is actively following the moving target.

 

also, any tips on which direction I need to turn etc to get the laser to follow for longer? the method I use on the F16 is not working on this jet. I keep getting masked (not on this track)

 

No issues hitting stationary targets.

 

track file included.

f15e lgb not following laser.trk

Edited July 21, 2023 by razorseal

[razorseal]

Here is another track with designation with a lead ahead of the targets. similar result. 

f15e lgb not following laser with lead on des.trk

[razorseal]

Lastly, same mission with F16 instead. No need to lead to designate, or anything. bomb dead on

Is it the F15's older design that's the limitation (hence need for WSO) or something up? I know there is a 4 page thread on this, but I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, or if it's just ea issues.

f16 hitting target LGB.trk

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I think you were generally low (below 4k ft radar alt) and did not have enough lead at pickle, so the LGB fell short in both cases. You actually hit the vehicle behind the target in the 2nd track and weren't far behind the target in the 1st track. I tried the tracks and managed to hit the targets occasionally. The faster trucks were more difficult. I think CDES certainly helps in that you can reshift the PTRK to the target near TREL to get the latest designate diamond/bomb fall line before pickle. Without it, I lose PTRK every time I redesignate. Not sure if that is by design. You can also try a higher alt so there's more time for the process and for the LGB to maneuver. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[QuiGon]

As @GrEaSeLiTeNiN said: Make sure you have neough altitude to give the bomb more time to guide. Also, if the target is moving fast you need to designate a point in space in front of the vehicles direction of movement as the bomb won't be able to catch up if you designate on the moving vehicle itself.

[Erazor]

There was a recent discussion about this in the Razbam Discord and @Notso said this:

TL;DR answer is: DON'T USE CDES and PTRK for movers!

Quote

We had a long discussion on this just yesterday in the ED CB channel.  I don't want to have to re-type it all, so here is the discussion:

The BLUF is CDES and this suite of the strike eagle doesnt really have any good moving target engagement modes
At least for LGBs
CDES isn’t really supposed to be used for moving targets although if it was working correctly it would do what you wan t
So basically what is happening if I think I’ve got the bug straight is when you press designate
The pod jumps slightly and breaks the track (in game)
So you have to re-enable the track
But it breaking the track disables CDES
so it’s essentially impossible to get a CDES on a moving target

Like just for SA CDES is so you can have a continuous designation and active range ins to the target via the targetting pod on run in
Not really so you have a moving designation
Not what it’s designed for
Basically think using the pod and laser for AGR on an AUTO release
Not for providing a moving designation
With the advent of EGI and other pods CDES went away and it always had issues that made its use “contentious”

I just pull lead with the pod and do a stationary des out in front
As I’m rolling in
Works better and the bomb doesn’t stall
Into the target

This is how we did it for real.  Unless the mover is moving very slowly, PTRKing the mover would guarantee a miss.  So yes, we would Des out in front of the mover, attack from behind and then manually hold the crosshairs in lead of the vehicle.  Anywhere from just in front of the front bumper if moving 10mph or less out to about a full vehicle length if up in the 20-25 mph range.  Our WSEP test seemed to suggest that 25-30ish mph was about the limit a GBU-12 could hack.
CDES was mainly designed for AGM-65 handoff.  Not for movers.

So the TL;DR answer is: DON'T USE CDES and PTRK for movers!

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by erazor

[QuiGon]

This was also debated on the forum here over the past week. See this comment from Klarsnow (a former F-15 WSO) on the matter:

On 7/18/2023 at 4:12 AM, KlarSnow said:

So what may be causing this issue is that when you designate with the TDC the track is switching from point to area (incorrectly). Which may be interrupting the CDES process and causing it to stop updating. Either way its not really working correctly.

And as just a bit of SA for how to engage moving targets. CDES really isn't supposed to be a moving target engagement mode. It can be used as such, but its real purpose was for continually updating the target range and coordinates for stationary targets until the instant of release.

Prior to CDES being implemented creating a designation with the targeting pod and the laser firing could only ever make what is called a "one shot" designation, IE the coordinates and elevation are saved the moment you create the designation. The issue with that is that with a drifting INS and error in the system, any appreciable time frame (greater than a few seconds) after creating the designation results in the designation starting to drift away from the actual target location. The way aircrew would get around this was by constantly designating on final every few seconds to keep updating the relative position of the target.

This also was not ideal since the jet was not really meched to deal with the designation being constantly recreated over and over again in this manner, the release symbology could start jumping or not being able to handle the sudden jumps in input, so they implemented CDES where the jet just keeps smoothly updating the target relative location and elevation and can handle it in a good manner and aircrew don't have to create designations over and over again while on final.

So CDES isn't really a moving target mode, even though it can be used as such. There were a bunch of issues with it IRL that lead to it eventually getting removed in the very next suite of software for the F-15E, but a bunch of other tools were also added (actual moving target track modes and automatically calculating ballistic designation lead for a moving target in track for example).

If you want to engage moving targets with LGB's in this suite of strike eagle, what you really have to do (or at least what aircrew using this suite did) is pull lead manually with your targeting pod and make a designation out in front of the target based on its speed. Its not that hard, takes a bit of practice but can be quite effective.

Your other option "currently" would be to use a GBU-24 in a point and shoot mode. To do this, select DIRECT on the ARMT page, be below 15,000 feet MSL, have your targeting pod on the desired target, laser firing, dive steeper than 15 degrees to get the reticle in the HUD on the desired target, release the bomb and lase it in to impact. The GBU-24 will if released steeper than 15 degrees and below 15,000 feet MSL both pull pro-nav lead, and glide at the angle you released it at into the target, not taking a ballistic path (no need to pull ballistic lead).

In any case the current CDES behavior is somewhat broken and should get fixed, but please don't think that this system is really optimized for moving targets. The F-15E in this timeframe really did not have a lot of tools for hitting movers that became fairly standard a few years later.

 

 

[razorseal]

On the second track, i had CDES off and designated maybe 100-200 feet in front of the target to lead. still didn't work. how much am I supposed to lead? half a mile? I don't know the target's speed, so don't know how far I should lead.

 

I also think 4K AGL isn't "optimal" height, but still fairly high. 

 

again, how come the F16 does this without any issues? newer design jet with better computing abilities, or just bugs worked out?

9 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

I think you were generally low (below 4k ft radar alt) and did not have enough lead at pickle, so the LGB fell short in both cases. You actually hit the vehicle behind the target in the 2nd track and weren't far behind the target in the 1st track. I tried the tracks and managed to hit the targets occasionally. The faster trucks were more difficult. I think CDES certainly helps in that you can reshift the PTRK to the target near TREL to get the latest designate diamond/bomb fall line before pickle. Without it, I lose PTRK every time I redesignate. Not sure if that is by design. You can also try a higher alt so there's more time for the process and for the LGB to maneuver. 

 

 

3 hours ago, QuiGon said:

As @GrEaSeLiTeNiN said: Make sure you have neough altitude to give the bomb more time to guide. Also, if the target is moving fast you need to designate a point in space in front of the vehicles direction of movement as the bomb won't be able to catch up if you designate on the moving vehicle itself.

 

2 hours ago, erazor said:

There was a recent discussion about this in the Razbam Discord and @Notso said this:

TL;DR answer is: DON'T USE CDES and PTRK for movers!

 

 

This is what I did on the 2nd track though. CDES was off (I was on PTRK, not ATRK) and lead the vehicle about 100 feet in front to designate just before drop. then I moved on the target and used PTRK (which did track the vehicle, hence should have put the laser on the target) 

I guess lucky for me in most MP servers I play, I have never ever seen a moving target. they're always stationary vehicles at airports. It was just me making a mission to practice stationary and moving objects. which all jets can do except the F15

Edited July 22, 2023 by razorseal

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Not using PTRK and CDES for movers but moving the tpod crosshairs to track a mover manually would be ok if you had a human WSO or AI pilot. Might be tricky if flying solo. As far as the DCS sim world is concerned, am I right to understand that when the CDES and PTRK are fixed, or when we get the litening pod (are we?), these issues would be gone?

[Hatman335]

3 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Not using PTRK and CDES for movers but moving the tpod crosshairs to track a mover manually would be ok if you had a human WSO or AI pilot. Might be tricky if flying solo. As far as the DCS sim world is concerned, am I right to understand that when the CDES and PTRK are fixed, or when we get the litening pod (are we?), these issues would be gone?

That depends on how they implement the rest of the system. If we get ACQ cursor function and TMTT (ie, the real mover logic) then sure, hitting movers will require very little marksmanship.

[razorseal]

Let me ask this here before I make a post about it.

 

What is typical altitude for se drivers to drop LGBs (and jdams, which we'll get soon) during modern engagements we've seen in oef/oif? Assuming no air threats, Sam etc.

 

Not sure if f15s did any CAS stuff, but I assume they did. I also assume there was show of force etc which means they dropped pretty damn low so I don't see them climbing back upto 20k etc.

 

 

[609_Relentov]

Also, for automatic lasing, recommend you don’t use  continuous lasing (I.e. ALAS / CONT), but rather set a time for the lasing to begin so many seconds before expected impact (e.g. I use 15 seconds).

This way the LGB doesn’t start moving its control fins right away which is very draggy, and may cause the bomb to fall short.

For example:

• By default, lasing is auto, continuous (ALAS CONT) - to change: From the "ARMT" page, select "A/G DLVRY" (PB-10), then "PROG PAGE" (PB-1), then "ALAS/MLAS" (PB-11) for auto/manual lasing; Further, if"ALAS", on the UFC you can type in the number of seconds to start lasing from expected time GBU-12 hits the target (e.g. "15" seconds), then select "ALAS" (PB-11) to set it; Enter "SHF" "9" (for "C'») for continuous.