Transportation of goods on an external sling

[Altair89]

For what reason was the possibility of suspension of cargo on the ka 50 gone?

[Hobel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Altair89:

For what reason was the possibility of suspension of cargo on the ka 50 gone?

As far as I've heard, I guess they're not sure if the Ka-50 could do it, so it was removed.

The only way to provide evidence would be in IRL cockpit pictures showing the cargo switches and their labeling.

[Raisuli]

Does seem like an odd use for a dedicated attack helo, particularly with one that has such crappy visibility.  The AH-64 (sorry to mention that here) doesn't sling cargo, does it?

Plenty of trucks with rotors if you want to haul the mail 

[Altair89]

13 часов назад, Raisuli сказал:

Does seem like an odd use for a dedicated attack helo, particularly with one that has such crappy visibility.  The AH-64 (sorry to mention that here) doesn't sling cargo, does it?

Plenty of trucks with rotors if you want to haul the mail 

The fact that the AN-64 does not carry cargo is his own business, in real life the KA-50 had such an opportunity, as I understand it, the problem is only with documents

Edited September 2, 2023 by Altair89

[Raisuli]

4 hours ago, Altair89 said:

The fact that the AN-64 does not carry cargo is his own business, in real life the KA-50 had such an opportunity, as I understand it, the problem is only with documents

 

Ah!  Learned something that really wasn't too surprising given Russian design philosophy.

That makes it a good day.  Thanks!  Of course given my advanced level of ignorance about the Ka-50 I learn things all the time since I started to fly it, which is kind of cool.

[Gaz48]

Hello, it would still be great to be able to choose the load transport in the options if you want like the iglas.....

[orbiter28]

I find the first step !

But i cannot redistribute ED files in a mod. So this is my fix :

In DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Ka-50_3\Input\ka-50_3\joystick\default.lua , uncomment the 4 lines after "-- External Cargo"
Do the same in E:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Ka-50_3\Input\ka-50_3\keyboard

it should look like this :
{down = iCommandExtCargoHook, name = _('External Cargo Hook'),     category = _("External Cargo")},
{down = iCommandExternalCargoAutounhook, name = _('External Cargo Autounhook'),    category = _("External Cargo")},
{down = iCommandExternalCargoIndicator, name = _("External Cargo Indicator"),  category = _("External Cargo"), },
{down = iCommandEmergencyCargoUnhook, name = _('External Cargo Emergency Unhook'),     category = _("External Cargo")},

In DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Ka-50_3\comm.lua
After the line :
utils.verifyChunk(utils.loadfileIn('Scripts/UI/RadioCommandDialogPanel/Config/Common/ATC.lua', getfenv()))(5, {[Airbase.Category.AIRDROME] = true, [Airbase.Category.HELIPAD] = true} )
Add this line : 
utils.verifyChunk(utils.loadfileIn('Scripts/UI/RadioCommandDialogPanel/Config/Common/Cargo.lua', getfenv()))(6)

You can make the same modifications for the Ka-50 in the Ka-50 folder.

One problem: weight is not taken into account. It is possible to simulate this via the “define on-board load” triger with the condition “unit in mobile area” and “unit height”.
I would need a little help with lua scripting to modify the triggers of a mission to do something closer than what was originally in the game.

test charge kamov.miz

[Gaz48]

Tanks

[zerO_crash]

On 9/1/2023 at 7:25 PM, Hobel said:

As far as I've heard, I guess they're not sure if the Ka-50 could do it, so it was removed.

The only way to provide evidence would be in IRL cockpit pictures showing the cargo switches and their labeling.

Here is an example from the cockpit of Ka-50 #23 (blue cockpit):

"ТРОС" - CABLE (This button is for releasing the load.)

"ТРОС" - CABLE (This button is for activating the sling stabilization system.)

 

This is known however from before, that's why manual lists those buttons as well. The problem really is, this doesn't constitute a proof in itself. Pretty much every Ka-50 cockpit that I have seen poctures of, has the A-A button on the collective, yet no evidence exists of any heat-seeking rocket being tested on it. Quite the contrary, the switch isn't even wired in the contemporary machines.

Supposedly, the Ka-50 had sling-capability, however ED deemed the helicopter too exclusive IRL, in order to ever be used for this (have you ever seen a Ka-52 sling load something, other than proof of concept? - nope). That said, if the helicopter had sling-capability (it had), then it should be included in the module.

Edited December 7, 2023 by zerO_crash

[Hobel]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb zerO_crash:

have you ever seen a Ka-52 sling load something

yes

[zerO_crash]

6 minutes ago, Hobel said:

yes

(Besides demonstrating the capability.)

 

The system will be used very seldomly, if at all IRL. There are other helicopters specifically tailored for utility/lift/cargo that are cheaper to operate and better equipped for the task (crew chief assisting in the physical work) - Mi-8/Mi-26/Ka-26/Ka-27/Ka-29/Ka-32/etc...

 

EDIT: About the most you will see a Ka-52 transporting, other than weapons and fuel tanks, are travel pods (which I have requested for our Ka-50).

Edited December 7, 2023 by zerO_crash

[Erforce]

IMHO, a single seated chopper with tremendous autonomous systems before the real computing era and a lift ratio like this, could have played a combat support role while Mi24/mi8 are platoons and tech haulers, this baby could bring their meats, ammos and spare parts, then support them after a short maintenance. But with only 24 units, I also understand that Russia wouldn't put in practice this kind of silliness. Well, You still can use an older version of DCS if you really want to transports those gas pipes and play with Electronic engine governors to squeeze 2% turbines extra power (and have a chance to kill them in the process)

But I agree, this option like the iglas, should exist at least, even if it's not widely used (for Iglas, they're too flare senstives anyways, best to use vikhrs).

[zerO_crash]

Preciesely! I honestly hope that they change their minds at some point, and while there are more important tasks at hand (pilot body, custom amount of Vikhrs per pylon and more), the decision whether to include systems or not, shouldn`t be based off the usefulness-factor. Taking manpower into consideration, the primary selling point of this simulator, is its authenticity and ability to truthfully recreate.

[Hobel]

Yes, let's hope for the best 

 

Am 8.12.2023 um 19:44 schrieb Erforce:

(for Iglas, they're too flare senstives anyways, best to use vikhrs).

Vikher against helicopters absolutely yes.   But against a jet flying fast over your head they are completely useless... With the Igla I only have to look at the jet for an extremely short time before I can fire. 

[zerO_crash]

It ought to be said; until the AI damage model is more uniform and consistent across, we will have to live with Igla not granting a successful outcome. With that said, if you engage a human-controlled aircraft, the worst case scenario (for you), is the subject having to RTB due to damage (fuel leak, irresponsive or degraded flight control authority, optics/systems damaged, etc...). Let's hope the damage model gets improved in not too long

[Erforce]

On 12/9/2023 at 11:54 PM, Hobel said:

Vikher against helicopters absolutely yes.   But against a jet flying fast over your head they are completely useless... With the Igla I only have to look at the jet for an extremely short time before I can fire. 

You know what, for years we, BaDcrc and Ka50 lovers ranted at ED to implement a true analog axis to drive the Shkval, in order to engage fast pesky moving targets. 10y ago I've MP a nice russian dev to push this higher, and you know what, we had it (quite recently)! Since then, designating moving targets is a painless task with a true mini axis. But you're right on very fast transversal targets, it's faster to use Igla (or hide in trees) but flare sensitve.
For damage model, depending where you strike, but even a vikhr is not enough for Apache or Mi24.

For cargo, unfortunately AI is extremely dumb for this task as it doesn't manage pendular effect, nor can follow a specific route (in valleys) while transporting (unlike embark command). That is a severe limiting factor to simulate deliveries in hill ou mountain environment.

On a side note, adding features is always followed by smart mission designers who wants you to perfect their favorite aircraft, and removing this after a while could break entire part of campaigns, or limit these ones to extremely simple tasks like take off, shoot something, land.
Same with Igla, INU spooling time, ABRIS's CALC (debugged), or ABRIS software/hardware crash (still bugged).

[orbiter28]

We don't know why ED removed this feature. Perhaps it is a ratio of maintenance cost / infrequent use by players. Or that it must be redeveloped from scratch with the new kamov.
The assertion that the feature was deleted because it is rarely used IRL surprises me when we see the amount of detail they like to put into their simulator.

I imagine that they no longer plan to sell updates for the Kamov and therefore are in a strategy of limiting long-term maintenance costs as much as possible.
The DCS community is more adult (= understanding about the financial aspect) than the gaming community and probably prefers a complete aircraft even if it comes at a  small update cost.

What is the average age of this community? Surely enough to know that there is a link between work and salary.
Sorry for this aside, I took the liberty of writing a few thoughts on the root cause.

Edited December 19, 2023 by orbiter28

[zerO_crash]

We definitely do know the cause of why Ka-50 BS3 doesn't have the sling capability implemented. The aforementioned, was stated on the Russian side of the forums. The feature itself, shouldn't demand any individual maintenance, however that is something ED can answer. Still, this was not included in the argument reasoning to exclude it.

 

I would absolutely question the notion of adultry on these forums, even compared to "games", or your average dotcom-forum. While the average age (mean age would offer a more relevant comparison) will be higher, the enthusiasm does show. The fact that multiple 3rd party devs, along with ED, have gone silent as to their updates, is because the crowd has a tendency to propell the train faster than it can be controlled. Whilst ED representatives have been far more open, back in the day, they have to think twice before posting anything nowadays, otherwise context gets altered or no respect is given to the possibility of changing geopolitics (what we deal with here, can often be of a very sensitive nature), and the next thing you see is "#TwoWeeks".

 

The same goes for accepting highly relevant arguments against attempting to model with a lack of information. You'd be surprised how many people here want the F-35 in DCS, where, to be honest, you shouldn't possibly need ED to tell you that they won't get any relevant info about the module for the next half a millenium. I'm not going to mention all the wishes for sharks with lasers, but there are a fair amount of fairy tale conceptions here. Really, a quick swipe through forums, will reveal constant "When is it coming?"-type of topics.

 

As to the above mentioned ability to sling load for Ka-50 BS3, it certainly is realistic, and an upgrade from BS2 to BS3, should be all about adding more realism, not forfeit on certain aspects. I'm sure we'll get it at some point.

Edited January 18, 2024 by zerO_crash

[Tiger-II]

A rotorcraft like the Ka-50 makes for an awesome lifting platform. Instead of losing power to driving a tail rotor, all the power goes into lifting the aircraft - exactly what you want.

Not sure how not having lift capability reduces compatibility issues. There are plenty of other things that can change in the sim to require an update.

[zerO_crash]

22 hours ago, Tiger-II said:

A rotorcraft like the Ka-50 makes for an awesome lifting platform. Instead of losing power to driving a tail rotor, all the power goes into lifting the aircraft - exactly what you want.

Not sure how not having lift capability reduces compatibility issues. There are plenty of other things that can change in the sim to require an update.

No. The concept of coaxial rotor allows to retain all power focused on vertical lift. Ka-50 being an attack helicopter however, has blades which are optimized for speed, not for lift (it's not always the case with attack helicopters, Ah-64 is a good example - blades optimized for lift). While it can lift an incredible amount (co-axial concept proving its worth), the airfoil does make it a secondary function in this helicopter, behind all combat tasks. Furthermore, with it being a very expensive piece of equipment, it's a functionality that it has, but practically never gets used. About the most a Ka-50/52 ever transports, are the transport containers sometimes used (mounted on pylons).

Having less functionality on a specific module, means that when changes are made to a certain mechanic/equipment, that module does not need an update. If new cargo/physics/etc... get introduced/changed, then each and every module which supports the mechanic/system, needs to be adjusted for that. It's that simple.

Edited February 28, 2024 by zerO_crash