Thinking of building a new rig. Need advice.

[frostycab]

15 minutes ago, CptBligh said:

I would also be looking at AM5 at this point instead of buying into a dead end platform with Intel.  You may not ever need to upgrade the CPU again but at least the option would be there.

You're about 10 minutes too late. LOL I just put the orders through, but thank you for the input. Rightly or wrongly I was probably always going to stick with Intel for this build as I confess I haven't really followed AMDs offerings for for about 12 years now. It could be the wrong decision, but I suppose I'm just comfortably in bed with Intel these days.

[LucShep]

23 hours ago, frostycab said:

You're about 10 minutes too late. LOL I just put the orders through, but thank you for the input. Rightly or wrongly I was probably always going to stick with Intel for this build as I confess I haven't really followed AMDs offerings for for about 12 years now. It could be the wrong decision, but I suppose I'm just comfortably in bed with Intel these days.

You're fine. That system will be friggin awesome, you'll see.

Personally, I consider the i7 13700K (and 14700K) as a better choice than the AMD 7800X3D, regardless of platform obsolescence.
It's pretty much as good for gaming (difference in the single % digits), while being much, much stronger in multi-threaded workload. It's by far a better all-rounder, even if the power-consumption is far worse, when compared. 
Don't get me wrong, the AMD 7800X3D is awesome, but then it's a one-trick-pony that not every game appreciates, not to mention MT applications.

BTW, something to consider at some point if you feel you can handle it (an optional, not a necessity) and if expecting to use that Intel 13th gen chip at full workloads for long extended periods  -  replace the ILM with a contact frame, for better contact between cooler and processor (around 8ºC gains on max temps). 
Thelmalright's Anti-Bending Buckle is a good one and it's at a cheap price.

Edited November 10, 2023 by LucShep

[LucShep]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:34 PM, CptBligh said:

I would also be looking at AM5 at this point instead of buying into a dead end platform with Intel.  You may not ever need to upgrade the CPU again but at least the option would be there.

You're totally correct that Intel Z790 is a dead end, while AMD AM5 isn't.

About Intel's chipset platforms life span, as side note and pardon my rant, people often extrapolate things and it has been overblown (IMO).

Example, the Intel Z690 motherboards. Across different manufacturers and all price-segments, most of these support now (with a BIOS update) three generations of Intel chips - 12th, 13th and 14th gen. So, someone who bought an i5 12600K and a Z690 motherboard in 2021, is able to upgrade over two and a half years later to, say, the new i9 14900K, as a direct CPU swap with a simple BIOS update (so, just like with AMD AM4 respective CPUs). 

And this backward/forward compatibility has happened with every Intel "Z" chipset for years now:
Z170 (2016) and Z270 (2017) both support 6th and 7th gen
Z370 (2017) and Z390 (2018) both support 8th and 9th gen.
Z490 (2020) and Z590 (2021) both support 10th and 11th gen.
Z690 (2021) and Z790 (2022) both support 12th, 13th and 14th gen.

You won't see any mention of this from any techtuber/influencer or website, because it goes against the recent narrative and agenda, too controversial for some minds.
Then the profitable "niceties" and connections from that other side could end, and the AMDrones (the fanboys, like football hooligans) would flood the gates to harass/cancel you and your platform, and/or poison the comments section till the end of days, like always. And so, along with marketing and herd mentality, things go as they go...

Edited May 6, 2024 by LucShep

[Tea-Pig]

So if you don't mind me asking @frostycab, what's the final damage to your bank account?

[frostycab]

59 minutes ago, Tea-Pig said:

So if you don't mind me asking @frostycab, what's the final damage to your bank account?

I don't mind you asking. I do mind being reminded about it. LOL However, that pain is being temperred by the fact that I just got a notification that everything is due for delivery in the next couple of hours.

The total atm is just over £3500, though I may add a couple more fans if needed, and might get the upright GPU bracket for the case once they become available. They're on preorder everywhere with no expected date.

[Tea-Pig]

Well thanks for saving me a dose of Googling... Hope the build goes smoothly. Please let us know.

I think I'm going to try to be patient and improve my limited knowledge before taking the plunge, unless anything irresistible appears in the sale season.

[SharpeXB]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:01 PM, frostycab said:

Before you ask, I know nothing about overclocking, and to be honest I've always been scared to even try it, so everything will probably be left at stock speeds.

On the Asus motherboards you’re looking at like the ROG, overclocking the CPU is just a matter of clicking a button on the utility App (Armory Crate) It’s an easy free performance boost. Maybe not much of a boost but it’s free. 
 

I wouldn’t necessarily discount pre-built rigs. If it’s from a good vendor there are substantial advantages going that route. Mainly you don’t have to build it or make yourself into an expert at all this. You also can get things like 24/7 tech support, free labor on upgrades, financing etc. All key things to have if you plan on owning this for a very long time. The premium you pay for that is certainly worthwhile considering what all the parts would cost individually.

[CptBligh]

7 hours ago, LucShep said:

You're totally correct that Intel Z790 is a dead end, while AMD AM5 isn't.

About Intel's chipset platforms life span, as side note and pardon my rant, people often extrapolate things and it has been overblown (IMO).

Example, the Intel Z690 motherboards. Across different manufacturers and all price-segments, most of these support now (with a BIOS update) three generations of Intel chips - 12th, 13th and 14th gen. So, someone who bought an i5 12600K and a Z690 motherboard in April of 2021, is able to upgrade over two and a half years later to, say, the new i9 14900K, as a direct CPU swap with a simple BIOS update (so, just like with AMD AM4 respective CPUs). 

And this backward/forward compatibility has happened with other Intel "Z" chipset motherboards:
Z270 (2017) supported 6th and 7th gen
Z390 (2018) supported 8th and 9th gen.
Z490 and Z590 (2020) both supported 10th and 11th gen.
Z790 (2022) supports 13th and 14th gen.

You won't see any mention of this from any techtuber/influencer or website, because it goes against the recent narrative and agenda, too controversial for some minds.
Then the profitable "niceties" and connections from that other side could end, and the AMDrones (the fanboys, like football hooligans) would flood the gates to harass/cancel you and your platform, and/or poison the comments section till the end of days, like always. And so, along with marketing and herd mentality, things go as they go. 

While Intel has supported subsequent generations of CPUs on some chipsets, they were hardly worth bothering with to upgrade assuming like for like tiers.  My X99 Haswell-E system never went to Broadwell-E, and now I'll never upgrade on Z690 from my 12700k as 13th and 14th gen hasn't brought anything to the table just like those prior gens you mentioned. 

Someone who went from a R7 1700 to a R7 5800 had a hell of a upgrade, though admittedly it was probably a tiny minority that lucked into that situation.  And of course no guarantees that AM5 will have the meaningful generational improvement that AM4 saw either.

[LucShep]

10 hours ago, CptBligh said:

While Intel has supported subsequent generations of CPUs on some chipsets, they were hardly worth bothering with to upgrade assuming like for like tiers.  My X99 Haswell-E system never went to Broadwell-E, and now I'll never upgrade on Z690 from my 12700k as 13th and 14th gen hasn't brought anything to the table just like those prior gens you mentioned. 

That's a good point but, the thing is, you got into the platform in the right foot, with the 2nd best in the line up (and a great chip btw).

Now imagine that you only managed a 12600KF back at the time of launch (must have happened to someone). As good as that still is, wouldn't you feel better now knowing that you can put a 14700K or 14900K into your system later?
That's a decent upgrade, with just a BIOS update, without having to change anything other than the thermal paste and probably the cooler (not even a new Windows install).  Similar to the common "AMD superior life span" argument then, afterall. That was my point. 
 

10 hours ago, CptBligh said:

Someone who went from a R7 1700 to a R7 5800 had a hell of a upgrade, though admittedly it was probably a tiny minority that lucked into that situation.  And of course no guarantees that AM5 will have the meaningful generational improvement that AM4 saw either.

What I still don't get with the whole "AMD AM4 platform long life span" that some people try to hold on like a flag...  why does it even matter, if the initial products (and for years) were not even worth buying?
For instances, take that example, R7 1700 to R7 5800... remember how bad Ryzen 1000 series were for gaming, and how hard techtubers tried to convince otherwise? 
...barely able to keep up with a stock i7 3770K launched five years prior.
The 2000 series were a bit better, as was the 3000 series again later, but they all suffered with infinity-fabric issues (poor performance, stuttering gallore). 

Those in that scenario, who bought the R7 1700 for gaming, got quite a few hair-pulling issues for over three years until, finally, upgrading to the first good line-up of AM4 CPUs (but last to be released for it), the 5000 series. Was the whole thing a worthy investment and experience? 
Wouldn't it have been better to enjoy all those "suck it up" years instead with the i7 8700K (awesome, stock or OC'ed), with zero issues of any kind, performance or otherwise, right from the start, from day one and for years, probably to this day? 

Platform life span is all good and great on paper, but in practice...?  I believe instead that buying RIGHT the very first time makes up for any lack of platform continuity.
Noone should ride on promises - much less on a platform which doesn't even work right with four sticks of RAM, featured on every expensive mobo they sell (a scam).
If you get a gaming PC to enjoy yourself, and pay by the nose, then make sure you get what is proven to make you the happiest from the very first moment.  Forget whatever hasn't even been launched yet.

Edited November 11, 2023 by LucShep

[frostycab]

Well, all the arguments for and again AMD or Intel, the system is built now, and she's a sexy little beast! 

 

It is running rather warm, I'll admit. I ordered some of the wrong size fans to run up the side, so they'll be added soon. Aside from that I'm wondering if I shouldn't mount the pump the other way up to make sure no air gets trapped. There's definitely some thermal throttling going on, as core temps are regularly rising to 100C under heavy load, so it'll be worth checking the thermal paste has good coverage. I'd like to have another stab at the cable management too, as having been through the process now I can safely say I could do better on the back side, but after several hours of assembly I just wanted to turn it on and try it. Please bear in mind this is only the second time I've ever tried to build a system, so no hate please. LOL

Performance (even if it is throttling) is amazing! I have never seen DCS run so smoothly, and I genuinely never believed VR could be as rewarding as it is now. I'm going to have to do a lot of research regarding how best to set up my Index now that I have a system that allows for tweaking the settings. (Having spent as much as I did on this system I think I may have to put off getting a Reverb or Pimax for a few years!) I never really got a grip on things like pixel density and all those settings, and I also need to work out how to get Steam VR settings just right too.

Once again, in FPS games it's stunning. CP2077 and Starfield are smooth as butter. Cities Skylines 2 is stable and smooth. The Hunter: Call of the Wild looks fantastic, and I can actually hit targets in ARMA for the first time in ages. Don't even get me started on Solitaire and FTL hehe

Thank you everyone for your help and advice regarding choosing the right components for this build.  You are amazing people and deserve many virtual beers!

[kksnowbear]

Very nice looking   Glad to hear it went OK after all...

On the cooling:

- I noticed (it looks like) you don't have a (non-radiator) exhaust fan(?)...if I'm looking at it right the bottom fans are intakes.  While it is definitely proper to have the rad fans exhausting (if that's how they are, see next point), I'd say you still should have at least one 120 at the rear to pull heated waste air out.

- On the radiator: Can't see from the pic, but I assume the fans are pushing toward the rad so as to exhaust waste heat, correct?  If so, I wouldn't change anything.  I'm not sure what you meant by 'mounting the pump the other way'...but you have the pump below the rad with space for air void at the top of the rad.  You don't want the pump head higher than the rest of the loop, and you definitely don't want waste heat dumping into the chassis by mounting the rad in front or side (a terrible idea that contradicts the laws of physics).

- One common issue with some cooling arrangements, including most liquid coolers, is that because there's no fan mounted over the CPU socket, there's no real source of airflow for crucial components in that area (i.e. the VRMs, chipset, and RAM).  Intel and AMD design their stock coolers like they do for a reason:  Even though they're only intended to be adequate, they also blow air over the chipset, VRM, and RAM areas.  You don't get that with an AIO cooler, and IMHO it means you need to arrange for other airflow across those areas.  (The aforementioned rear exhaust can help with this, BTW).  Having a rear exhaust will help by pulling all the GPU waste heat toward the upper rear instead of straight across your RAM as the rad fans will do as it is now.

On the heat, the 13th/14th gen Intel stuff is not an area I'm very experienced in - but, I have read/heard they're hot.  How hot obviously depends on load and settings.  Often, "automatic" overclocking (in BIOS) will cause hotter temps by applying excessive voltages just for stability at higher clocks.  In order to really analyze what's happening, you'd have to know the temps, yes - but also what the clocks/cores and voltages on the CPU are doing.  100c is definitely hot, but as I understand it, it's not an unusual temp for those CPUs - and I am reasonably sure thermal throttling wouldn't occur until you exceeded 100c.  Without knowing the clocks, what is it that tells you there's throttling?  Also, what do you consider "heavy load"?

I take it the additional side fans are to be mounted as intakes, and that should help.  It's a beautiful build, but it needs more cool air intakes   Overall you want more intakes than exhausts, to yield net positive pressure which cools better and helps keep dust down (provided you properly filter the intakes).

PS I see a computer (the old one?) in the floor....please, please in the name of Pete tell me you do not intend to put the new one in the floor!

Edited November 12, 2023 by kksnowbear

[frostycab]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

Very nice looking   Glad to hear it went OK after all...

On the cooling:

- I noticed (it looks like) you don't have a (non-radiator) exhaust fan(?)...if I'm looking at it right the bottom fans are intakes.  While it is definitely proper to have the rad fans exhausting (if that's how they are, see next point), I'd say you still should have at least one 120 at the rear to pull heated waste air out.

- On the radiator: Can't see from the pic, but I assume the fans are pushing toward the rad so as to exhaust waste heat, correct?  If so, I wouldn't change anything.  I'm not sure what you meant by 'mounting the pump the other way'...but you have the pump below the rad with space for air void at the top of the rad.  You don't want the pump head higher than the rest of the loop, and you definitely don't want waste heat dumping into the chassis by mounting the rad in front or side (a terrible idea that contradicts the laws of physics).

- One common issue with some cooling arrangements, including most liquid coolers, is that because there's no fan mounted over the CPU socket, there's no real source of airflow for crucial components in that area (i.e. the VRMs, chipset, and RAM).  Intel and AMD design their stock coolers like they do for a reason:  Even though they're only intended to be adequate, they also blow air over the chipset, VRM, and RAM areas.  You don't get that with an AIO cooler, and IMHO it means you need to arrange for other airflow across those areas.  (The aforementioned rear exhaust can help with this, BTW).  Having a rear exhaust will help by pulling all the GPU waste heat toward the upper rear instead of straight across your RAM as the rad fans will do as it is now.

On the heat, the 13th/14th gen Intel stuff is not an area I'm very experienced in - but, I have read/heard they're hot.  How hot obviously depends on load and settings.  Often, "automatic" overclocking (in BIOS) will cause hotter temps by applying excessive voltages just for stability at higher clocks.  In order to really analyze what's happening, you'd have to know the temps, yes - but also what the clocks/cores and voltages on the CPU are doing.  100c is definitely hot, but as I understand it, it's not an unusual temp for those CPUs - and I am reasonably sure thermal throttling wouldn't occur until you exceeded 100c.  Without knowing the clocks, what is it that tells you there's throttling?  Also, what do you consider "heavy load"?

I take it the additional side fans are to be mounted as intakes, and that should help.  It's a beautiful build, but it needs more cool air intakes   Overall you want more intakes than exhausts, to yield net positive pressure which cools better and helps keep dust down (provided you properly filter the intakes).

PS I see a computer (the old one?) in the floor....please, please in the name of Pete tell me you do not intend to put the new one in the floor!

 

When I mentioned mounting the pump the other way I was referring to flipping it upside down so the pipes enter and exit at the top of the pump. I know the pump should always be below the highest point of the radiator to avoid air bubbles displacing coolant in the pump head.

With regards to the fan placement, I wanted to get it built to this stage before deciding on a final layout. Yes, the rad fans are exhausting, while the base fans are intakes. I dod have another fan that was intended for the rear but I stupidly ordered a 140mm instead of 120mm so it won't fit. I'll be changing that soon. I'm trying to decide whether to vertically mount the GPU against the side once the necessary brackets are in stock, with the option of mounting another set of 120mm exhausts behind it to really pull through OR just adding 3 more 140mm intakes in the same place to aid in creating positive pressure in the case. Doing the latter, coupled with a rear exhaust should help with airflow over the motherboard. If I go for the vertical mount option then I'll probably reverse the rear 120mm to be an intake so all the exhaust goes out the side.

As for what I consider to be heavy load, I'm thinking of DCS and MSFS in vr with high settings, though some core temps still regularly hit 100C even when doing mundane tasks. Even just booting into BIOS shows the CPU sitting at 88C, and I hope I'm not dumb to think that's a little bit high.

What you see on the floor is what remain of my old system, now cannibalised for the drives. Doing so has made me realise that I should be cleaning out my rig more often, as the GPU fins were a solid block of dust. Cleaning continues.... LOL  It did live on the floor for a while due to limited space, though I'm not daft enough to put it on a fluffy carpet. I actually had it on a big piece of cardboard to provide a hard surface and so I could slide it around easily when I needed to get at it. Trust me, the new rig is getting pride of place. I'm hoping to finally move into my new flat by Christmas, so once I'm in I can work out furniture placement and really show it off.

The old rig itself will eventually be cleaned up and hopefully run better than it did. I could use it as a streaming rig, or perhaps as my day-to-day web/email PC which would allow me to keep the new one uncluttered and purely for gaming. Alternatively, it could end up following its predecessor and finding itself donated to my older brother. He loves MSFS, and is currently flying with my old i7-6700K and 1070 GPU, so an i9-9900K with a 2070 Super should be an improvement.

[frostycab]

On 11/10/2023 at 7:24 PM, LucShep said:

 Forget whatever hasn't even been launched yet.

I find myself really agreeing with this, though perhaps for a different reason. It doesn't matter how nice the next generation of CPUs or GPUs or RAM or anything else is if you can't frikkin' get hold of it anywhere. Yeah, I know the almost perfect storm of 2020-21 played a big part in things, but if you struggle to find next-gen stuff in stock anywhere, and then can't afford it even if you do because of scalpers then it doesn't benefit you at all.

[LucShep]

On 11/12/2023 at 8:45 PM, frostycab said:

Well, all the arguments for and again AMD or Intel, the system is built now, and she's a sexy little beast! 

It is running rather warm, I'll admit. I ordered some of the wrong size fans to run up the side, so they'll be added soon. Aside from that I'm wondering if I shouldn't mount the pump the other way up to make sure no air gets trapped. There's definitely some thermal throttling going on, as core temps are regularly rising to 100C under heavy load, so it'll be worth checking the thermal paste has good coverage. I'd like to have another stab at the cable management too, as having been through the process now I can safely say I could do better on the back side, but after several hours of assembly I just wanted to turn it on and try it. Please bear in mind this is only the second time I've ever tried to build a system, so no hate please. LOL

Performance (even if it is throttling) is amazing! I have never seen DCS run so smoothly, and I genuinely never believed VR could be as rewarding as it is now. I'm going to have to do a lot of research regarding how best to set up my Index now that I have a system that allows for tweaking the settings. (Having spent as much as I did on this system I think I may have to put off getting a Reverb or Pimax for a few years!) I never really got a grip on things like pixel density and all those settings, and I also need to work out how to get Steam VR settings just right too.

Once again, in FPS games it's stunning. CP2077 and Starfield are smooth as butter. Cities Skylines 2 is stable and smooth. The Hunter: Call of the Wild looks fantastic, and I can actually hit targets in ARMA for the first time in ages. Don't even get me started on Solitaire and FTL hehe

Thank you everyone for your help and advice regarding choosing the right components for this build.  You are amazing people and deserve many virtual beers!

  
First of all, congrats! 

I'm pretty sure you are happy with the experience. Those positive first performance tests, after you brought that thing up by yourself, are so good and rewarding. 
A pre-built PC system acquisition just can't fulfill that sentiment of acomplishment and ownership.

OK, now as for the high CPU temps.
Intel 13th and 14th gen are supposed to be good up to 100ºC, but keeping it under 85ºC is ideal. 
From what I gather you're well aware of the case fan + radiator fan orientations for thermal dynamics, and that you got the rear fan in order (that one is vital, to get hot air out).

Please bare with me on these following points:

1. Make sure that you really did peal out the sticker from the cooler's coldplate (the flat thing that actually touches the processor).
   I know it sounds silly (looks too obvious), and pardon the whole process repeat of thermal paste cleaning and reapplying, etc, but it happens more often than you think!
   
   
    
2. Get the Thelmalright Anti-Bending Buckle for LGA1700. Although not a necessity, it's a cheap solution that is worth the time (it's not complicated, watch the videos). 
   The stock ILM in Z790 (and previous Z690) motherboards, unfortunately, doesn't ensure the best connection between the cooler's coldlplate and processor, and that thing solves that problem.
   
   
    
3. ASUS is one of the motherboard manufacturers that uses an "enhancement" setting that they leave ON (on "Auto") by default.
   In my opinion, it should always be set to OFF (as "Disabled"), because leaving it enabled actually brings more troubles than benefits.
   
   That specific setting is "MCE" (MultiCore Enhancement) and probably seen there as "Asus MultiCore Enhancement".
   What this setting does is remove Intel's safety limits and applies even more voltage, to enforce turbo-clock on all cores (hence why many call it an irresponsible cheat).
   As far as long-term goes, MCE won't overvolt anything to dangerous levels, but it does make the CPU operate with (even more) higher wattage and temperatures. 
   The thing of relevance here is, it provokes what it's not supposed to from factory.
   
   It's found in the motherboard BIOS, in Advanced mode,  under the "AI TWEAKER" or "EXTREME TWEAKER" tab section (one name or the other, depending on model). 
   Just put that thing OFF (as "Disabled"), save and exit BIOS... and off you go.
   
   IIRC, on the TUF boards it's under "AI TWEAKER" tab, while on the ROG boards it's under the "EXTREME TWEAKER" tab (like image below).
   Different names but same thing. Regardless, it should look similar to this:
   

Edited November 15, 2023 by LucShep