Missiles range comparison

[topol-m]

Just a comparison between different Air to Air missiles in terms of range. Stats taken from wikipedia.

 

(Russia) R-73: 30 km

(USA) Aim-9L: 18 km

(MBDA) Aim-132: 18 km

(France) R 550 Magic: 15 km

(Germany) Iris-T: approx. 25km

(Israel) Python 4: 15 km

(Israel) Python 5: approx. 20 km

 

 

(Russia) R-27R/R-27T: 70 km

(Russia) R-27ET: 120 km

(Russia) R-27AE: 130 km

(USA) Aim-7 F/M: 50 km

(MBDA) Mica: 60 km

(Israel) Rafael Derby: 50 km

 

 

(Russia) R-77: 90 km

(Russia) R-77M1:approx. 175 km (in development)

(USA) Aim-120A/B: 50-80 km

(USA) Aim-120C-5: 105 km

(USA) Aim-120D: probably approx. 160 km

 

 

(Russia) K-100: probably 200-300 km (in development)

(USA) Aim-54C: approx. 184 km

(MBDA) Meteor: approx. 100 km

[GGTharos]

Nice. Now stop reading wikipedia, because those quote ranges aren't even quoted for the same sets of parameters. In short, they aren't very useful.

 

The 54C BTW, has a recorded hit at 263km against a test drone ;)

 

No R-27 version is usable beyond 70km - and the T versions are straight-running heaters which couldn't attain such a combat range no matter how hard they tried.

[Pilotasso]

Some of this data is very wrong

[Vault]

The 54C BTW, has a recorded hit at 263km against a test drone

 

Out of curiousity was that against a non maneuvering head on target?.

[GGTharos]

Correct. It was, AFAIK, the most typical MAX range shot you can have ... high-high, probably launch at mach 2. I'm not aware of all the details myself though.

[Vault]

Some of this data is very wrong

 

LOL Pilotasso, now that's an understatement.

[Boberro]

"Wikipedia lies".

 

Here is next example:

 

maximum speed :2250...

 

 

About missiles above :)

 

Does even R-27AE exist? I think noo...

K-100 in dvelopment so we still won't see it many many years cos Russia develops something ages :(

 

Most these missiles ranges... is a dream for them :)

Edited March 24, 2009 by Boberro

[LaRata]

Out of curiousity was that against a non maneuvering head on target?.

 

In 1996, F-14 Fired 2 x AIM-54, at Iraq Mig-25`s. The 2 x AIM-54 Failed to Hit the Mig-25`s . . . At the same Air Combat F-15C, Fired 6 x AIM-120, At the same Mig-25`s . ( At Maximun Range ? ) ... All the Air to Air Misiles Fired in this Combat Missed their Target...

 

 

In the IR area the R-73 has the best Range. The R-73 Is the only new IR missile that have seen Air Combat. Until Now...

 

LaRata

[GGTharos]

Actually it was just a couple 120's, at max range. The AIM-54Cs at that time were not only old, but apparently their batteries hadn't been maintained, and they failed to hit due to simply not working.

 

The R-73 doesn't have the best range. It's actually got a very similar range to the AIM-9, despite what wiki likes to say.

 

The R-73 is -not- the only 'new IR missile that has seen Air Combat'. Python 3 and 4 have also.

[Vault]

In 1996, F-14 Fired 2 x AIM-54, at Iraq Mig-25`s. The 2 x AIM-54 Failed to Hit the Mig-25`s . . . At the same Air Combat F-15C, Fired 6 x AIM-120, At the same Mig-25`s . ( At Maximun Range ? ) ... All the Air to Air Misiles Fired in this Combat Missed their Target...

 

 

In the IR area the R-73 has the best Range. The R-73 Is the only new IR missile that have seen Air Combat. Until Now...

 

LaRata

 

ASRAAM has a far greater WEZ and velocity than any other WVR missile IIRC.

[GGTharos]

ASRAAM has a far greater WEZ and velocity than any other WVR missile IIRC.

 

 

Nope. It's in the same weight class as the sidewinder ... and thus in the same speed and range class, and IIRC it shares the same or similar seeker.

[Vault]

Nope. It's in the same weight class as the sidewinder ... and thus in the same speed and range class, and IIRC it shares the same or similar seeker.

 

The seeker on the ASRAAM is slighty more advanced than the AIM-9X seeker according to Dr Carlo Kopp IIRC who evaulated the RAAF's next generation WVR missile. The AIM-9X carries the same 4.5 inch rocket motor as the old AIM-9, The AIM-9X is able to pull more aplha/g than the ASRAAM but it sacrifices drag, velocity and range for this ability. The ASRAAM has a more aerodynamic body and greater sustained velocity giving the ASRAAM first shot capability compared to any other WVR missile incuding the AIM-9X. Again range and speed are governed by the aerodynamics of missiles body not the other way around. All the details are in the link below.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html

Edited March 24, 2009 by Vault

[topol-m]

The R-73 doesn't have the best range. It's actually got a very similar range to the AIM-9, despite what wiki likes to say.

 

In fact not only wiki says it has 30 km range and there is NO info about sidewinder or Asraam having 30 km range at all. And R-73M2 has even 40 km range.

 

"At the end of the Eighty, the the United States could acquire a hundred R-73, the Germans, recovering the Mig-29 ex GDR their to provide a launcher. During aerial simulations of combat, the surprise was total. The Mig-29, equipped with a sight of helmet, gained 49 times in 50 engagements against F-16 equipped with AIM-9M Sidewinder. Engagements against F-15 C equipped them as with AIM-9M Sidewinder showed as the envelope of shooting of K-73 was 30 times larger than that of AIM-9M! During these engagements, the Mig-29 succeeded in drawing in first 33 times out of 34. The Western armed forces reacted at once while launching programs again. AIM-9X with the the United States, the MICA in France, IRIS-T in Germany, the Python V in Israel… The last tests opposing the R-74ME to the version of development of AIM-9X still give an advantage of 2 compared with 1 at the time of a combat with a F-16 and of 1,5 compared with 1 with a F/A-18 E."

Edited March 24, 2009 by topol-m

[GGTharos]

I'm sorry but Kopp is clueless, and I'll leave it at that.

The reduction in fin area alone significantly increases range already. The ASRAAM might be able to get a little extra oomph because of the same thing, but tiny little control surfaces do NOT bode well for max range maneuvering.

 

FYI: Same sensor, at least as of '98: http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad-98-045.htm

[topol-m]

Also if someone is interested there is a nice article where a lot of the myths surrounding western design missiles and their success are busted.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html#1

 

There is a lot to read but here just a little citation:

The performance of the AIM-120A/B/C models in combat to date has not been spectacular. Test range trials have resulted in stated kill probabilities of 85 percent out of 214 launches for the AIM-120C variant. Combat statistics for all three variants are less stellar, amounting to, according to US sources, ten kills (including a friendly fire incident against a UH-60) of which six were genuine BVR shots, for the expenditure of just over a dozen AIM-120 rounds. The important parameter is that every single target was not equipped with a modern defensive electronic warfare package and therefore not representative of a state-of-the-art Flanker in a modern BVR engagement. Against such "soft" targets the AIM-120 has displayed a kill probability of less than 50 percent [1].

 

It is an open question whether the AIM-120D when challenged with a modern DRFM (Digital RF Memory) based monopulse trackbreaking jammer will be able to significantly exceed the 50 percent order of magnitude kill probability of prior combat launches, let alone replicate the 85 percent performance achieved in ideal test range conditions

Edited March 24, 2009 by topol-m

[Groove]

for topol-m's defense, there was a timeframe where the R-73 was considered the best short range missile around.

 

I like Kopp's articles, although he clearly is not unbiased.

[GGTharos]

In fact I don't think you even understand what you quoted. First, the R-73M2 isn't even operational, IIRC. Not that it matters.

Second, they claim the WEZ of the R-73 is greater than the sidewinder's, and they are correct, because with Shlem and TVC you have a much wider employment envelope. WIDER, not LONGER.

 

In fact not only wiki says it has 30 km range and there is NO info about sidewinder or Asraam having 30 km range at all. And R-73M2 has even 40 km range.

 

"At the end of the Eighty, the the United States could acquire a hundred R-73, the Germans, recovering the Mig-29 ex GDR their to provide a launcher. During aerial simulations of combat, the surprise was total. The Mig-29, equipped with a sight of helmet, gained 49 times in 50 engagements against F-16 equipped with AIM-9M Sidewinder. Engagements against F-15 C equipped them as with AIM-9M Sidewinder showed as the envelope of shooting of K-73 was 30 times larger than that of AIM-9M! During these engagements, the Mig-29 succeeded in drawing in first 33 times out of 34. The Western armed forces reacted at once while launching programs again. AIM-9X with the the United States, the MICA in France, IRIS-T in Germany, the Python V in Israel… The last tests opposing the R-74ME to the version of development of AIM-9X still give an advantage of 2 compared with 1 at the time of a combat with a F-16 and of 1,5 compared with 1 with a F/A-18 E."

[GGTharos]

Also if someone is interested there is a nice article where a lot of the myths surrounding western design missiles and their success are busted.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html#1

 

And please quit quoting this guy. He regularely states russian missile ranges as 2x of what they actually are ;)

It doesn't help your argument.

 

There is a lot to read but here just a little citation:

The performance of the AIM-120A/B/C models in combat to date has not been spectacular. Test range trials have resulted in stated kill probabilities of 85 percent out of 214 launches for the AIM-120C variant. Combat statistics for all three variants are less stellar, amounting to, according to US sources, ten kills (including a friendly fire incident against a UH-60) of which six were genuine BVR shots, for the expenditure of just over a dozen AIM-120 rounds. The important parameter is that every single target was not equipped with a modern defensive electronic warfare package and therefore not representative of a state-of-the-art Flanker in a modern BVR engagement. Against such "soft" targets the AIM-120 has displayed a kill probability of less than 50 percent [1].

 

The actual combat performance of the AIM-120, including launches that were made in poor parameters, is >0.6 ... That's really good compared to Sparrow's 0.34 and R-27's abysmal 5% in what is known so far (though the sources on the R-27 are at least suspect).

 

It is an open question whether the AIM-120D when challenged with a modern DRFM (Digital RF Memory) based monopulse trackbreaking jammer will be able to significantly exceed the 50 percent order of magnitude kill probability of prior combat launches, let alone replicate the 85 percent performance achieved in ideal test range conditions

 

No, it is not an open question. The tests were in act done against maneuvering AND jamming targets. Not in 'ideal conditions'. The USAF isn't interested in those.

 

Start searching this forum - all of this has been hashed out before.

[topol-m]

In fact I don't think you even understand what you quoted. First, the R-73M2 isn't even operational, IIRC. Not that it matters.

Second, they claim the WEZ of the R-73 is greater than the sidewinder's, and they are correct, because with Shlem and TVC you have a much wider employment envelope. WIDER, not LONGER.

 

 

In all the articles i`ve read, in all the stats that can be get through Internet it says R-73 has bigger range than Aim-9, how can suddenly you have info that it has a lower range i`m clueless.

[GGTharos]

The R-73 is heavier than the sidewinder, but it has less propellant mass. That means its range will be similar - range is very dependent on the amount of propellant mass.

 

Further, all those really long range claims are just dumb. They're obviously head-on range claims, not tail-on. I don't know what sort of target you'll lock onto head-on at 30km, and 10000m + altitude; but even if you do, I'm not convinced the seeker will remain cooled long enough to guide the missile to target.

 

Balistically both missiles are pretty similar. In guided flight the sidewinder may drag more due to its design, but the difference in range shouldn't be significant.

Edited March 24, 2009 by GGTharos

[topol-m]

The R-73 is heavier than the sidewinder, but it has less propellant mass. That means its range will be similar - range is very dependent on the amount of propellant mass.

 

I see you theorize the things. Its not facts that matters. Ok.

[GGTharos]

No, I gave you fact, you gave me a bunch of 'all these sites say ... '

 

I see you theorize the things. Its not facts that matters. Ok.

[topol-m]

No, I gave you fact, you gave me a bunch of 'all these sites say ... '

 

Well thats what im gonna do until someone proves they are all wrong, and i mean with PROOFS, or at least someone from Vympel Design Bureau comes to these forums and says what he knows about this problem, though unlikely.

[LaRata]

Actually it was just a couple 120's, at max range. The AIM-54Cs at that time were not only old, but apparently their batteries hadn't been maintained, and they failed to hit due to simply not working.

 

The R-73 doesn't have the best range. It's actually got a very similar range to the AIM-9, despite what wiki likes to say.

 

The R-73 is -not- the only 'new IR missile that has seen Air Combat'. Python 3 and 4 have also.

 

_F-14 using NOT Operational AIM-54 in Real Combat ???? No Hit in Real Combat was credited to the AIM-54 in US NAVY.

 

_AIM-120 and AIM-54 Fail to Hit The Mig-25`s in Real Combat. No Air To Air Missile are Perfect ...

 

_Range for US Missiles are not easy to find. Including in their official WebPages :( ...

 

_Range do not make any Missiles better to other missiles ...

 

LaRata

[topol-m]

_F-14 using NOT Operational AIM-54 in Real Combat ???? No Hit in Real Combat was credited to the AIM-54 in US NAVY.

 

_AIM-120 and AIM-54 Fail to Hit The Mig-25`s in Real Combat. No Air To Air Missile are Perfect ...

 

_Range for US Missiles are not easy to find. Including in their official WebPages :( ...

 

_Range do not make any Missiles better to other missiles ...

 

LaRata

 

Oh but if we start to compare them in terms of maneuverability, speed, Gs, etc. it will be endless.