need more information INS issue

[Oscarn]

11 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

More epic failures on the Nav system front:

I did a CCRP dumb bomb delivery sans TGP.  Adjust the impact point/steerpoint manually on the HUD.  That offset then stayed persistent on every waypoint even in NAV mode.  Nothing to TMS down.  Fortunately, it wasn't off by much.  On the ground, I think I got it to reset by going back into AG mode.  Resecting the bombs I didn't have anymore (being in gun strafe mode didn't revert the offset) and switching to CCIP.  Not sure TMS down on anything fixed it.

 

Again, I cannot overstate how incredibly fucking frustrating it is having a nav system that doesn't fucking navigate.  And the recent updates have only made it more temperamental!

Sounds like normal behaviour. You need to use the cz button as stated above

[Moonshine]

@itn might be related: 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2024 by Moonshine

[Raptor9]

The only two ways to command a Cursor Zero is to press the "CZ" OSB on the FCR, TGP, or HSD MFD formats; or to press TMS Aft while the TGP is SOI and the TGP is in SLAVE mode (i.e., the first TMS Aft takes it out of POINT or AREA track and it enters SLAVE mode).

In this context, CZ is added to the TMS commands when TGP is SOI as a hands-on shortcut to command CZ without needing to reach toward the MFD to press a button. However, the CZ function resides within the avionics SPI logic and isn't a TGP function.

[Moonshine]

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

However, the CZ function resides within the avionics SPI logic and isn't a TGP function.

Not sure i understand that part correctly. So CZ is an SPI logic, not limited to the TGP. If i slew the cursor on the AG-FCR, TMS aft will not CZ the cursor back to its original SPI location (slaved to a STP). Only the OSB will do that for me. Is that intended? Because when HUD is SOI and i slew the steerpoint diamond in NAV (or any VIS mode weapon, DTOS etc when in AG mastermode) TMS aft will remove the offset induced by slewing

Edited January 6, 2024 by Moonshine

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

Because when HUD is SOI and i slew the steerpoint diamond in NAV (or any VIS mode weapon, DTOS etc when in AG mastermode) TMS aft will remove the offset induced by slewing

There are some sub-modes where TMS Aft performs a "Target Reject" function like Cursor Zero. Like if you are in DTOS or VIS mode and you press TMS Aft while HUD is SOI, it is rejecting the target and returning DTOS/VIS to pre-designate. But in pre-planned modes like CCRP or PRE, performing Cursor Zero to reset the steerpoint offsets by pressing TMS Aft should only be possible if the TGP is SOI and the TGP is not in POINT or AREA track. If the TGP is not SOI when in CCRP, PRE, LADD, etc, TMS Aft should not perform CZ, but rather the function that is associated with the TMS functions of that selected SOI.

[Moonshine]

34 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

There are some sub-modes where TMS Aft performs a "Target Reject" function like Cursor Zero. Like if you are in DTOS or VIS mode and you press TMS Aft while HUD is SOI, it is rejecting the target and returning DTOS/VIS to pre-designate. But in pre-planned modes like CCRP or PRE, performing Cursor Zero to reset the steerpoint offsets by pressing TMS Aft should only be possible if the TGP is SOI and the TGP is not in POINT or AREA track. If the TGP is not SOI when in CCRP, PRE, LADD, etc, TMS Aft should not perform CZ, but rather the function that is associated with the TMS functions of that selected SOI.

So there is no „TMS aft“ function associated with the AG FCR cursor slewing (before a SPI has been designated via FCR as then it would just reject it again like you said)?

maybe i have to reword my question 

if you use the AG FCR (no matter which mastermode) the cursor is on the currently selected steerpoint „slaved“. Now start slewing the cursor on the radar screen but do not designate anything. After that you want to return the cursor so it is back to the original steerpoint location. You can achieve that by pressing CZ on the OSB, but not with TMS aft. Whereas with every other sensor selected as SOI, TMS aft would do the same as the CZ button does

Edited January 6, 2024 by Moonshine

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

 if you use the AG FCR (no matter which mastermode) the cursor is on the currently selected steerpoint „slaved“. Now start slewing the cursor on the radar screen but do not designate anything. After that you want to return the cursor so it is back to the original steerpoint location. You can achieve that by pressing CZ on the OSB, but not with TMS aft. Whereas with every other sensor selected as SOI, TMS aft would do the same as the CZ button does

TMS Aft contextually changes function based on master mode/sub-mode, the current SOI, and the state of the sensor that is SOI.

If you create a cursor delta and offset the steerpoint, it does not matter how you incurred the delta or with which sensor, there are only two ways to perform CZ as described above.

If you have FCR as SOI, TMS Aft will perform a target reject out of FTT/MTT. If you have HAD as SOI, TMS Aft will reject the designated threat symbol. If you have TGP as SOI, it will exit POINT/AREA track and enter Inertial/Slave mode (I forget which it is called precisely); but if it is already in Inertial/Slave mode, TMS Aft with TGP as SOI will perform a Cursor Zero as a hands-on shortcut instead of pressing CZ on any of the MFD formats that show it.

But all of that is assuming you are in a pre-planned submode like CCRP, PRE, etc. Other master modes like A-A or other A-G sub-modes like DTOS will result in different TMS Aft commands. Many of these are listed in the DCS F-16 Early Access Guide. However, the F-16 EA Guide is currently receiving the next round of needed revisions and updates to better explain these concepts with regard to Pre-planned vs Visual submodes, SPI, cursor slews, etc. It is just a lot of abstract concepts that need to have clear descriptions and accompanying illustrations.

[SickSidewinder9]

There often isn't CZ available.  Did I not just say I didn't even have a targeting pod attached?

Why would NAV mode not provide steering cues to the steerpoint?  That's ridiculous.

5 hours ago, Moonshine said:

Not sure i understand that part correctly. So CZ is an SPI logic, not limited to the TGP. If i slew the cursor on the AG-FCR, TMS aft will not CZ the cursor back to its original SPI location (slaved to a STP). Only the OSB will do that for me. Is that intended? Because when HUD is SOI and i slew the steerpoint diamond in NAV (or any VIS mode weapon, DTOS etc when in AG mastermode) TMS aft will remove the offset induced by slewing

 

Maybe it should but it doesn't.  I just explained that is the problem.  I only used the HUD to pick a target on the ground and could not reset the offset that then became built into every steerpoint while not in bombing mode.  It was still there in gun strafe and Nav.  TMS down on any SOI did not fix it.  Nav mod with nothing designated did not fix it.  Only switching back to a bombing mode like CCIP fixed it.

 

Again, novel idea:  the nav system in the jet works.  Forget spaghetti code, you have mushy, overcooked ramen code.

Edited January 6, 2024 by SickSidewinder9

[Moonshine]

22 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

If you have FCR as SOI, TMS Aft will perform a target reject out of FTT/MTT.

But what does it do if i have a steerpoint offset induced but am not in any FTT (so there is nothing to reject)?

because on the TGP, first TMS aft returns to INR track and TMS aft again REMOVES the steerpoint offset.

 

[Raptor9]

27 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

But what does it do if i have a steerpoint offset induced but am not in any FTT (so there is nothing to reject)?

because on the TGP, first TMS aft returns to INR track and TMS aft again REMOVES the steerpoint offset.

Nothing. As I already stated in my posts above, the only two ways to command Cursor Zero and remove steerpoint cursor deltas are:

1. Press the "CZ" OSB on the FCR, TGP, or HSD MFD formats; while in a pre-planned sub-mode (CCRP, LADD, PRE, etc) or NAV.
2. Press TMS Aft while the TGP is SOI and the TGP is not in POINT/AREA track mode; while in a pre-planned sub-mode (CCRP, LADD, PRE, etc) or NAV.

The only variable that the TGP itself has to play is that if a TGP is not present, then number 2 does not apply and only number 1 is possible.

Period. Finito. End of story.

[Moonshine]

3 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

Nothing. As I already stated in my posts above, the only two ways to command Cursor Zero and remove steerpoint cursor deltas are:

1. Press the "CZ" OSB on the FCR, TGP, or HSD MFD formats; while in a pre-planned sub-mode (CCRP, LADD, PRE, etc) or NAV.
2. Press TMS Aft while the TGP is SOI and the TGP is not in POINT/AREA track mode; while in a pre-planned sub-mode (CCRP, LADD, PRE, etc) or NAV.

The only variable that the TGP itself has to play is that if a TGP is not present, then number 2 does not apply and only number 1 is possible.

Period. Finito. End of story.

thanks for clarifying