correct as-is Sparrows and TWS

[okopanja]

On 2/6/2024 at 3:34 PM, GGTharos said:

There's probably no need for STT, but this not sure that this is worth discussing.

You're basically looking for a slow moving Vc jammer   You can get this off a hit, and display the classification; I have seen radar plots (not kinds we're used to) showing the main body return and the rotor return, and you could similarly classify prop planes as well. 

This is all about processing.  The moment you get a digital processor the likelihood that you can distinguish certain things goes up tremendously - detecting moving vehicles is just a matter of them going fast enough to be out of the notch gate.

We may talk here about processing and processing, there are 2 known facts:

1. we have example of the F-15C detecting hinds at 50nm in Iraq
2. we have a number of flights occurring in 1999, where no detection occurred. Surely they would have used to opportunity to score a cheap kill.

None of these cases can be disputed.

Clearly there were factors that prevented the F-15C from finding the helicopters in second group of cases.

We should take into account both common and differing factors.

Common factors in both case:

1. same aircraft
2. pilots receiving comparably similar training or often the very same pilots who flew in both places.
3. presence of AWACS in both cases
4. flat ground in Iraq vs flat ground in Northern of parts Yugoslavia and Kosovo (mixture of flat on one side and and hilly/mountainous relief) .

Some of the most obvious differing factors could be:

1. desert vs continental
2. large difference in humidity
3. in Iraq pilots had prior knowledge of helicopter flights and their rough location, provided by AWACS which observed helicopter ingress toward the point of USA special team
4. Yugoslavia is relatively evenly populated resulting in pretty decent coverage of human originated objects, at almost regular interval.
5. different helicopters were utilized. In Iraq Mi-24 is alleged, in Yugoslavia Gazelle + Mi-8. Note: fenestron construction on Gazelle would largely hide the signal coming from these blades.
6. some of the helicopters flights (but no all) were conducted in areas where terrain masking was feasible and this was in fact used whenever possible, however they still had to cover stretches from 10-20km of flat exposed ground.

If I have to guess in Iraq F-15C had more favorable SNR to track helicopters in Iraq than in Yugoslavia.

[GGTharos]

IRL you don't go off mission like every DCS player out there.  'Cheap kills' aren't a thing - I mean if it's right in front of you and you can chuck a rock at it sure, but there won't be deviating for this.

 All detections that I know of that were 'missed' were due to terrain masking.  Of course, I don't know everything.

Also, composite blades are great and lower RCS, but it's still on the order of m^2, not fractions thereof.

 

Everyone wants to ignore reality which is ... IRL the environment is full of things that will show up on your sensors and are not targets.  Even if they technically are targets, you may be prevented from going after them for a number of reasons, be it staying on task or issues with identification or just because the wreckage may land where it's not wanted.

 

And barring an abundance of targets confusing the picture, none of those things have anything to do with a radar determining that something is a helicopter or not.  The radar is either modern enough to deal with it or it isn't.

Edited February 11 by GGTharos

[okopanja]

9 hours ago, GGTharos said:

IRL you don't go off mission like every DCS player out there.  'Cheap kills' aren't a thing - I mean if it's right in front of you and you can chuck a rock at it sure, but there won't be deviating for this.

Sorry just to clarify this. I did not mean that the crew of F-15E did dot need to employ great level of skill and coordination, especially since they acted to preserve the unit on ground. Cheap it becomes sometimes in DCS, when it becomes too easy.