Forward Air Controller

[LupinYonder]

Hi there, I just wanted to throw some ideas and comments around about the use of the Ka-50 online specifically.

 

I feel that because this game/sim is all about realism there should be a greater emphasis on the support and control of air units so that individual Ka-50's can focus on the task at hand (I.E. flying, killing, surviving) while a FAC could give them situational awareness of the larger battlefield, co-ordinate their movements with other groups (Heli’s, ground units, Fast movers etc..) erm, am I making sense here?

 

Its just for me, it spoils the realism of the excellent flight model and systems of the Ka-50 to have pilots blindly flying around a battlefield looking for targets of opportunity and not working together for common objectives.

 

If such a thing could be implemented, a mod that would allow a player to be the FAC would be perfect. Giving him/her access to map data, allowing him to communicate with different groups and pilots, maybe even sending out Data link information on new targets and objectives.

 

As a side note, wouldn’t it be amazing and very useful if there was an in game voice communication system allowing pilots and my idea of a FAC to communicate using the radio systems already modelled in the cockpit!

 

Now I know I may well sound like "I want THIS I want THAT" and I’m sure I’ll get responses telling me to make it myself but I can’t/wont.

 

As I said, just some ideas that are important to me, please discuss.:huh:

[JimMack]

Hi there, I just wanted to throw some ideas and comments around about the use of the Ka-50 online specifically.

 

I feel that because this game/sim is all about realism there should be a greater emphasis on the support and control of air units so that individual Ka-50's can focus on the task at hand (I.E. flying, killing, surviving) while a FAC could give them situational awareness of the larger battlefield, co-ordinate their movements with other groups (Heli’s, ground units, Fast movers etc..) erm, am I making sense here?

 

Its just for me, it spoils the realism of the excellent flight model and systems of the Ka-50 to have pilots blindly flying around a battlefield looking for targets of opportunity and not working together for common objectives.

 

If such a thing could be implemented, a mod that would allow a player to be the FAC would be perfect. Giving him/her access to map data, allowing him to communicate with different groups and pilots, maybe even sending out Data link information on new targets and objectives.

 

As a side note, wouldn’t it be amazing and very useful if there was an in game voice communication system allowing pilots and my idea of a FAC to communicate using the radio systems already modelled in the cockpit!

 

Now I know I may well sound like "I want THIS I want THAT" and I’m sure I’ll get responses telling me to make it myself but I can’t/wont.

 

As I said, just some ideas that are important to me, please discuss.:huh:

 

In multiplayer mode you already have a FAC capability. In mission planning place an object where you want the FAC to be. The player who is chosen to be the FAC logs in as an observer. On launch of multiplayer, observer choses the object. Press CTRL+F11 and the FAC has a view from the object. He can then over teamspeak etc talk to other players and co-ordinate CAS. The FAC is not tied to the object, he can move around.

[Dusty Rhodes]

Well I did not know that and that is freekin' ingenious way of doing FAC, as long as the FAC doesn't cheat using F7. Thanks for that info JimMack.

[LupinYonder]

In multiplayer mode you already have a FAC capability. In mission planning place an object where you want the FAC to be. The player who is chosen to be the FAC logs in as an observer. On launch of multiplayer, observer choses the object. Press CTRL+F11 and the FAC has a view from the object. He can then over teamspeak etc talk to other players and co-ordinate CAS. The FAC is not tied to the object, he can move around.

 

Would it be possible to give only the FAC access to see enimies on the map screen so that he could then guide players to targets?

 

Has anyone played the Battlefield 2 mod Project reality ? I would love to see something similar to the way the commander works in MP on that brought into DCS.

[JimMack]

Well I did not know that and that is freekin' ingenious way of doing FAC, as long as the FAC doesn't cheat using F7. Thanks for that info JimMack.

 

Same principle for doing FAC in Flaming Cliffs. Make sure your object is not considered an enemy by opposing forces (ie a Humvee etc), as they may destroy your object. I usually use a farm.

[JimMack]

Would it be possible to give only the FAC access to see enimies on the map screen so that he could then guide players to targets?

 

The multiplayer server need to disable MAP view. Currently FACs should only see what they can see with their mark 1 eyeball. They do not currently have a terminal that shows feeds from AWACS etc to see positions on a map. In real life, some western forces do have ROVER capability, but this is not yet implemented in DCS.

[LupinYonder]

I don't really see how you can be effective as a FAC using only your eyes. For one your suck on the ground and have no birds eye view of whats going on, and It all way's shocks me how small things get at distance while flying.

 

I think Jim you can see what im getting at when you mentioned AWACS feeds and terminals, i dont have much of an idea how things work IRL and I am in know way criticising ED for not implimenting such a system.

[Coolhnd1]

Yeah, having a FAC would be great. I'm not sure why you'd use an object in the game to act as your FAC though. Besides not being terribly realistic, especially if it can't be destroyed by the enemy you'd be stuck in one place all the time.

 

Why not just send a Ka-50 to act as the FAC and keep them well out of range of any enemy formations? You could use TeamSpeak to give targets to people in the game. unless your in the same flight I don't think you'd be able to send targets electronically to anyone though. I'm not sure how that's done in real life but I'm guessing with the all effort now going on in the military to network information these days a FAC probably could send electronic target information to any formation in the area.

 

Now if ED ever gets some fighter plane addons done and they modeled an E3..

[JimMack]

I don't really see how you can be effective as a FAC using only your eyes. For one your suck on the ground and have no birds eye view of whats going on, and It all way's shocks me how small things get at distance while flying.

 

I think Jim you can see what im getting at when you mentioned AWACS feeds and terminals, i dont have much of an idea how things work IRL and I am in know way criticising ED for not implimenting such a system.

 

These links may help in explaing the role of a FAC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_air_control

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafregiment/roles/fac.cfm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7887892.stm

 

It is a very skillful task, relying on your eyes, hardcopy maps and comms with aircraft.

[ZaltysZ]

We currently have AI wingman which is able to go on recon mission and report back the encountered targets. Maybe ED could implement something similiar with FAC? You open radio menu, choose FAC, ask for "Picture" and then FAC tells about all objects it sees.

 

I imagine it something like this: Radio -> FAC ->

1. -> [positioning reletavive to helo/FAC ] -> [enemy/friendly/all] -> [armor/air/AA/other/all]

[goon3r]

We currently have AI wingman which is able to go on recon mission and report back the encountered targets. Maybe ED could implement something similiar with FAC? You open radio menu, choose FAC, ask for "Picture" and then FAC tells about all objects it sees.

 

I imagine it something like this: Radio -> FAC ->

1. -> [positioning reletavive to helo/FAC ] -> [enemy/friendly/all] -> [armor/air/AA/other/all]

 

I was conceptualizing something like this as well. I think F4: AF has a similar radio command setup.

 

I guess for now we'll all have to make good with the AI Wingman but I think this would be good to have in the future.

[LupinYonder]

We currently have AI wingman which is able to go on recon mission and report back the encountered targets. Maybe ED could implement something similiar with FAC? You open radio menu, choose FAC, ask for "Picture" and then FAC tells about all objects it sees.

 

I imagine it something like this: Radio -> FAC ->

1. -> [positioning reletavive to helo/FAC ] -> [enemy/friendly/all] -> [armor/air/AA/other/all]

 

Yup, thats exactly the sort of thing i was thinking of for an AI FAC. But a player controlled FAC with some kinda terminal maybe based on the map page would rock also :-)

[SUBS17]

In F4AF I've flown as FAC in the F-16 and I use the A/G radar to locate the tgts(grid coordinates) and mark them with smoke so the other pilots can then move their STP to the new grid coords and locate the tgts smoke markers. It would be cool to do this with the A-10C since it has a similar HSD to the F-16s.:thumbup: BTW you also need binos/GPS and a laser designator for the FAC on the ground for the air he would need Binos.

[JimMack]

Yup, thats exactly the sort of thing i was thinking of for an AI FAC. But a player controlled FAC with some kinda terminal maybe based on the map page would rock also :-)

 

You already have this capability.

Go to GAMEPLAY options. F10 Options. Turn off all options. You will see the map when you press F10. You know where you are because you placed an object with known lat/long co-ords.

[Dusty Rhodes]

Yes Allied Force has FAC implemented, but it doesn't work. However if it worked like it is designed to, it would be the BOMB, no pun intended. I would like to see something like that in Black Shark but that is a wish list item.

[EtherealN]

And even more so for A10C. I realize the technical difficulties of making a true-to-life implementation of a FAC guiding you through a Danger Close scenario, but by the Gods I would love it.

 

However, I do suspect that the multiplayer "approximations" of it that are already possible are good enough and that the sheer amount of development work for it might not be worth it.

 

If I only had a couple million pounds to spare and no economic sense at all I'd finance it! :P

[SUBS17]

Yes Allied Force has FAC implemented, but it doesn't work. However if it worked like it is designed to, it would be the BOMB, no pun intended. I would like to see something like that in Black Shark but that is a wish list item.

 

FAC works for me for both AI and Human pilots the process is Check in with AWACs then upon arrival report FAC in. Locate 1st tgt - Declare with AWACs then wait for AI/Human flights to check in. When flight checks in select that flight from the list and assign the tgt, for human pilots you can give them the grid coordinates by using the markpoint which can then be used to move the tgt STP to the new coords. Mark with smoke and circle from a safe distance to avoid SAMs/AAA and tell the pilots of any movement or changes. You can also to make it more realistic give a 9 line brief and mark with smoke.:thumbup:

You can also lock tgts in padlock and external view(6) to declare from AWACS and assign to flights.

[SUBS17]

I was conceptualizing something like this as well. I think F4: AF has a similar radio command setup.

 

I guess for now we'll all have to make good with the AI Wingman but I think this would be good to have in the future.

 

What would be better is for the AI to give a 9 line brief for the tgt and ingame it should be known some intel prior to the mission. Also the kill box should be in the HSD for the A-10C or at least on a knee map for an A-10A/KA50 so pilots know where they are shooting and what they are shooting at. In a Dynamic type game the AI aircraft should report automatically sightings of ground units which adds to the intel picture in the fog of war and thats where FAC and oncall CAS flights should be assigned.

Edited April 13, 2009 by SUBS17

[JaBoG32_Prinzartus]

A standard nine-line-brief provided by AI FACs would be an absolutely cool featur! I second that!

[LupinYonder]

Thought i'd just post this link as its a little relavent

http://www.totimm.com/air_combat_environment.html

 

ACE is a distributed PC-based, air combat mission rehearsal system. Comprised of one ACE Controller and one to many ACE 3D desktop training clients, ACE is a highly scalable, customizable system that includes high-fidelity electronic warfare and threat environments.

The ACE Controller acts as a virtual battlespace manager interoperating with a variety of 3D client applications. The ACE 3D Clients and Desktop Training Systems (DTS) are based on commercial game technology combined with sophisticated simulation modules and provide man in the loop & physics based models.