What is 72hz like?

[Dangerzone]

Sounds like a silly question, but my only experience in VR is the HP Reverb, which has 60hz and 90hz.

60FPS/hz might be OK with frames, but the fluorescent light like flickering isn't ideal, and I'm suspicious could be a contributing cause to headaches I sometimes get if I use it. 90FPS seems sweet.

I was wondering if someone who has experienced 60hz, 72hz and 90hz could please comment. In particular, did you notice any flickering with 72hz (like at 60hz), or is 72 fast enough to smoothen it out?

Also - is there any real perceivable difference when you're running at 72hz/72fps vs 90hz/90fps, or does one look as smooth as the other? 

I'm looking at the Pimax crystal. My concern is that I can hit 90fps at the moment with the HP Reverb, but not sure if I'll be able to hit it with the Pimax and was wondering if 72hz is a suitable fallback, or if it's going to have the same issues I currently face if i switch to 60hz?

Edited March 19, 2024 by Dangerzone

[diego999]

It depends on the person really. Some can play at 36fps (I'm one of those), others will vomit with anything less than 90.

I have a Quest 2, so 72, 90 and 120Hz. 120 was like a dream but totally out of reach for my pc. Tried 90 for a while but it was achievable only when flying high and alone, so most of the time I was locked at 45 with reprojection (totally playable for me by the way). But at the end I settled for native 72. That's a goal I can reach.

When it goes down to 36 with reprojection (while flying over cities or in crowded missions) I see some artifacts but not that flickering you mention. Maybe because Quest's motion reprojection is better than other headsets? I don't know.

Yes. There is a very perceivable difference between 72 and 90. 72 is not bad, but you can tell without looking at the counter because you 'feel' it much smoother.

Edited March 19, 2024 by diego999
typo

[jurinko]

I had g2 and now q3, so I know what 90hz looks like and I could not stand 60hz for a second.

72hz is so much better than 60hz that I do not recognize it at all. In the link menu, if I concentrate on it, yes there is distant shimmer and 90hz is solid, but ingame i do not feel it. 

Edited March 19, 2024 by jurinko

[Nedum]

10 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

Sounds like a silly question, but my only experience in VR is the HP Reverb, which has 60FPS and 90FPS.

60FPS might be OK with frames, but the fluorescent light like flickering isn't ideal, and I'm suspicious could be a contributing cause to headaches I sometimes get if I use it. 90FPS seems sweet.

I was wondering if someone who has experienced 60hz, 72hz and 90hz could please comment. In particular, did you notice any flickering with 72hz (like at 60hz), or is 72 fast enough to smoothen it out?

Also - is there any real perceivable difference when you're running at 72hz/72fps vs 90hz/90fps, or does one look as smooth as the other? 

I'm looking at the Pimax crystal. My concern is that I can hit 90fps at the moment with the HP Reverb, but not sure if I'll be able to hit it with the Pimax and was wondering if 72hz is a suitable fallback, or if it's going to have the same issues I currently face if i switch to 60hz?

I am using 72 Hz only. And yes, you will notice a kind of flicker (more a kind of noise in the picture), but a 1000 times less as with the 60Hz of the G2. The good thing, after a while you will only notice it, if you play a long time with 90 HZ or more again. Even then, it's not nearly as obvious as with the 60 Hz of the G2.

If you want to buy a headset with a good field of view, the best clarity, and you only play Sims, go for the Pimax. It's worth every cent. If you want to play beat saber or games with heavy and fast body movement, look for another HS. For games with a lot of body movement, I use the Quest 3. It's by far not as sharp and clear as the Crystal, but it's enough to play beat saber.

In my opinion, the Pimax is the best consumer VR-HS for Sims. The pros outweigh all the cons. There is only one VR-HS which could come near to the Pimax, the Varjo Aero. The problem with the Aero I have is, the tiny vertical FoV. For a Combat Flight Sim, in my eyes, a big No No.  It !feels! like you have only the half of the view you got with the Pimax Crystal. Physically it's much more than the half, but I'd always had the feeling I am wearing a medieval helmet, with a tiny slit to see through. Nothing you want to use if you are in a Dogfight, especially in a Warbird.

Edited March 19, 2024 by Nedum

[Phantom711]

Now as always, in that discussion FPS and refresh rate get mixed up or are sometimes being used synonymous to each other. Even though there is a relation between them, they are not the same. The OP is on the right track though.

As a reference, I had the Reverb G2 and have a Quest Pro now.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb diego999:

Some can play at 36fps (I'm one of those),

I doubt it. I guess you mean 72Hz with motion reprojection kicking in? The whole idea behind MR is to still show you 72 FPS (while running at 72Hz), it‘s just that every second frame is artificially created by the the GPU. It basically makes it up to the best of it‘s knowledge.

 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb diego999:

When it goes down to 36 with reprojection (while flying over cities or in crowded missions) I see some artifacts but not that flickering you mention

I really don‘t want to pick on you, so don‘t take it as an offense. It seems, you have never had a Reverb and hence you don‘t know the flickering the OP is talking about. It‘s not about stuttering or MR artefacts.

I found the game to run very smooth on the Reverb (G2) at 60Hz/60FPS but the srcreens are literally flickering especially at brighter areas (i.e. clouds) in your peripheral vision.

I suspect, that this is purely a result of the frame being shown for too short and the blackout time in between frames being too long.

Long story short: I use the 72Hz mode with my Quest Pro and I am very happy with it. There is no such flickering as in the Reverb. 
It‘s funny, how the companies mostly advertise their high refresh rates when the aim, at least for us simmers should rather be the lowest refresh rate that provides smooth gameplay. 60Hz/60FPS would probably be sufficient. 

[ackattacker]

15 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

Sounds like a silly question, but my only experience in VR is the HP Reverb, which has 60FPS and 90FPS.

60FPS might be OK with frames, but the fluorescent light like flickering isn't ideal, and I'm suspicious could be a contributing cause to headaches I sometimes get if I use it. 90FPS seems sweet.

I was wondering if someone who has experienced 60hz, 72hz and 90hz could please comment. In particular, did you notice any flickering with 72hz (like at 60hz), or is 72 fast enough to smoothen it out?

Also - is there any real perceivable difference when you're running at 72hz/72fps vs 90hz/90fps, or does one look as smooth as the other? 

I'm looking at the Pimax crystal. My concern is that I can hit 90fps at the moment with the HP Reverb, but not sure if I'll be able to hit it with the Pimax and was wondering if 72hz is a suitable fallback, or if it's going to have the same issues I currently face if i switch to 60hz?

First, the Pimax crystal has eye tracking and quad view foveated rendering makes a huge difference in performance. You should be able to achieve similar performance to your Reverb G2.

Like you, I find 60Hz screen refresh rate unbearable. I literally cannot take it for more than 10-15 minutes. 

However I run my Pimax at 120Hz refresh rate and 60fps from the game (“locked to half refresh rate”. The result is pretty good. It is my preferred, and lets me crank the graphics pretty high.

I find native 72Hz (and 72FPS from the game) to be pretty good also. Very acceptable if the game can keep up. 

72Hz/36FPS is no good for me in DCS. It’s ok in more sedate flight sims like MSFS. The issue is that fast motion causes double images, like being cross-eyed.

90Hz/90FPS is sublime but you need to turn down graphics quite a lot to achieve it. 

90Hz/45FPS is marginal. 

120Hz/120FPS in unachievable with even the highest end hardware.

 

[diego999]

4 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

I doubt it. I guess you mean 72Hz with motion reprojection kicking in? The whole idea behind MR is to still show you 72 FPS (while running at 72Hz), it‘s just that every second frame is artificially created by the the GPU. It basically makes it up to the best of it‘s knowledge.

 

Oh no. When I started the VR journey I literally didn't know what I was doing, and I tried to play with settings way to optimistic for my PC. I didn't know what motion reprojection was, so I left it off. I played with real fps between 20-40 and it was, as you can imagine, terrible. But what I did notice was, when the FPS went above 30, it was tolerable. Awful, but tolerable.

Anything less than 30 was vomit inducing though.

 

4 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

I really don‘t want to pick on you, so don‘t take it as an offense. It seems, you have never had a Reverb and hence you don‘t know the flickering the OP is talking about. It‘s not about stuttering or MR artefacts.

 

No, I never had a G2 and I don't know about that particular flickering. DLSS doesn't help with that? For me it was a great improvement, at the cost of some ghosting.

 

4 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

It‘s funny, how the companies mostly advertise their high refresh rates when the aim, at least for us simmers should rather be the lowest refresh rate that provides smooth gameplay. 60Hz/60FPS would probably be sufficient. 

 

Absolutely.

 

 

[WipeUout]

My Pimax 8KX runs pretty acceptable at 60 or 75hz but so much better at 90hz.  What made a big difference was also to use Quadviews which seems to process frames in a more stable way.  Using Quadviews made 60hz and 75hz much better than before.  Seems that with Quadviews, the spacing between frames is more uniform creating a much better experience.  I must also admit that simming at 60 or 75hz during long period of time is difficult compared to 90hz.  With a 3080, you will not be able to sustain 90hz in all scenarios and at one point, have to compromize too much on quality.  Personal taste and tolerance play a big role here also.

[Phantom711]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb diego999:

No, I never had a G2 and I don't know about that particular flickering. DLSS doesn't help with that?

Apples and peaches man…

It‘s not jaggies at some edges that are flickering.

Now I don‘t know how old you are, but imagine looking at an old monitor or TV when they were still tubes…that‘s the kind of flickering the Reverb suffers from at 60Hz.

Edited March 19, 2024 by Phantom711

[Dangerzone]

Thanks to all who have replied...

8 hours ago, ackattacker said:

However I run my Pimax at 120Hz refresh rate and 60fps from the game (“locked to half refresh rate”. The result is pretty good. It is my preferred, and lets me crank the graphics pretty high.

I find native 72Hz (and 72FPS from the game) to be pretty good also. Very acceptable if the game can keep up. 

With the 120Hz/60fps - are you using motion reprojection?

Last night I had the idea of experimenting by moving DCS's slider to 45FPS with my HP Reverb set to 90Hz to see what it would be like. I did notice the staggering for objects that were closer or moving much faster. It was very noticeable when doing a roll in the FA18 on 'free flight' in Georgia.

What I'm not sure about though, is whether that's just 45FPS itself, or whether that's a condition of 45FPS being used with a 90Hz display. it made sense (in my mind) that halving the FPS should avoid staggering - just obviously having less frames - but I can't help but think that what I see on my monitor, and in VR are two very different results. 

Motion reprojection used to work brilliantly for me. 45fps (at 90hz) was a dream, and I could even get down to 30fps with a good experience. But something has changed in the last year now and motion reprojection is horrible. I don't know what it is, but I'm grateful I can now achieve 90fps in 99% of cases, but I'm always on the look for contingency options should they be needed.

[Dangerzone]

9 hours ago, ackattacker said:

First, the Pimax crystal has eye tracking and quad view foveated rendering makes a huge difference in performance. You should be able to achieve similar performance to your Reverb G2.

Like you, I find 60Hz screen refresh rate unbearable. I literally cannot take it for more than 10-15 minutes. 

However I run my Pimax at 120Hz refresh rate and 60fps from the game (“locked to half refresh rate”. The result is pretty good. It is my preferred, and lets me crank the graphics pretty high.

I find native 72Hz (and 72FPS from the game) to be pretty good also. Very acceptable if the game can keep up. 

72Hz/36FPS is no good for me in DCS. It’s ok in more sedate flight sims like MSFS. The issue is that fast motion causes double images, like being cross-eyed.

90Hz/90FPS is sublime but you need to turn down graphics quite a lot to achieve it. 

90Hz/45FPS is marginal. 

120Hz/120FPS in unachievable with even the highest end hardware.

 

This is encouraging to hear. It sounds like the Pimax is the only VR headset (I'm aware of) that's actually really gunning for the sim community at the moment. WMR is going the way of the dodo, Varjo Aero is all but sold out, and their new headset appears to be designed for something else (both with features and price tag), and I don't think I could consider a headset that doesn't support DFR for futureproofing moving forward. 

It's good to hear that DFP should give me similar performance to the G2. I just know that YMMV is very real in the VR scenario. Hardware, machine specs, and personal tolerances all play a role that seem to make experiences very different from one person to the next. I read numerous people are dropping the resolution for VR below the native resolution (such as DP to 0.8 in DCS) - but when I do that, I can't stand the image. Others find motion reprojection woeful, but I found it great (until about 6-12 months ago where something changed for me and now it's horrible and I don't know why). 

 

14 hours ago, Nedum said:

I am using 72 Hz only. And yes, you will notice a kind of flicker (more a kind of noise in the picture), but a 1000 times less as with the 60Hz of the G2. The good thing, after a while you will only notice it, if you play a long time with 90 HZ or more again. Even then, it's not nearly as obvious as with the 60 Hz of the G2.

If you want to buy a headset with a good field of view, the best clarity, and you only play Sims, go for the Pimax. It's worth every cent. If you want to play beat saber or games with heavy and fast body movement, look for another HS. For games with a lot of body movement, I use the Quest 3. It's by far not as sharp and clear as the Crystal, but it's enough to play beat saber.

In my opinion, the Pimax is the best consumer VR-HS for Sims. The pros outweigh all the cons. There is only one VR-HS which could come near to the Pimax, the Varjo Aero. The problem with the Aero I have is, the tiny vertical FoV. For a Combat Flight Sim, in my eyes, a big No No.  It !feels! like you have only the half of the view you got with the Pimax Crystal. Physically it's much more than the half, but I'd always had the feeling I am wearing a medieval helmet, with a tiny slit to see through. Nothing you want to use if you are in a Dogfight, especially in a Warbird.

 

I'd prefer to run at 90hz - but honestly, if 72hz is really that much better than 60 - I could be tempted to either use that as a fallback if needed, or otherwise to bump up some extra nice graphics in DCS. But at $2000USD - I'm wanting to cross all my i's and dot all my t's before I make this big decision and know that it's definitely going to work for me, and be the best option moving forward. 

[Chief_Biv]

.

9 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

This is encouraging to hear. It sounds like the Pimax is the only VR headset (I'm aware of) that's actually really gunning for the sim community at the moment. WMR is going the way of the dodo, Varjo Aero is all but sold out, and their new headset appears to be designed for something else (both with features and price tag), and I don't think I could consider a headset that doesn't support DFR for futureproofing moving forward. 

It's good to hear that DFP should give me similar performance to the G2. I just know that YMMV is very real in the VR scenario. Hardware, machine specs, and personal tolerances all play a role that seem to make experiences very different from one person to the next. I read numerous people are dropping the resolution for VR below the native resolution (such as DP to 0.8 in DCS) - but when I do that, I can't stand the image. Others find motion reprojection woeful, but I found it great (until about 6-12 months ago where something changed for me and now it's horrible and I don't know why). 

 

I'd prefer to run at 90hz - but honestly, if 72hz is really that much better than 60 - I could be tempted to either use that as a fallback if needed, or otherwise to bump up some extra nice graphics in DCS. But at $2000USD - I'm wanting to cross all my i's and dot all my t's before I make this big decision and know that it's definitely going to work for me, and be the best option moving forward. 

It’s unfortunate to hear MR is no longer working for you in your G2. I am loving mine and the minor ghosting at 45fps is acceptable. Just make sure you are not trying to run Turbo mode or the Shake Reduction in the OpenXR Toolkit at the same time as MR.

[Dangerzone]

14 hours ago, Chief_Biv said:

.

It’s unfortunate to hear MR is no longer working for you in your G2. I am loving mine and the minor ghosting at 45fps is acceptable. Just make sure you are not trying to run Turbo mode or the Shake Reduction in the OpenXR Toolkit at the same time as MR.

Turbo is definitely off. I don't recall shake reduction, so maybe I should see if I can find that setting and make sure it's turned off. It is a pity. I'm fortunate that I can hit 90FPS (If I lower settings), and I don't mind a little bit of ghosting on very fast moving objects - which is what I had before - but now for some reason MR seems to be ghosting a lot more in all areas. Thanks for the suggestion on Shake Reduction. I'll double check to make sure that's not enabled when next on.

[Chief_Biv]

If I turn Turbo mode on I get bad stutters. If I turn Shaking Reduction on (see the Inputs tab) at the same time as MR you get wobbly ghosting especially as you move your head around.