Wingman Issues

[icecold951]

I have multiple campaigns, not posted, with wingmen. An easy way to task other craft without using follow commands and more. But as of two updates ago I think, they are broken. I'll radio command F6 to execute mission objectives, and they just want to go home. Sometimes if I am right on top of the target, they'll finally attack. Often, if it is a multiple target mission using JDAM or JSOW, they will only attack one target. They'll ignore the rest. Has anyone worked out how to get the wingmen to cooperate with instructions?

[Aoi Kaze]

The wingmen usually follow the order "engage -->mission objectives and rejoin (or RTB). But it depends on the task they have, the advanced waypoints as in giving them priorities on what to attack and the plane (for example in the f-15E they cannot use certain weapons)... So I would need to have a little more info to try to help you more.

[icecold951]

8 hours ago, Aoi Kaze said:

The wingmen usually follow the order "engage -->mission objectives and rejoin (or RTB). But it depends on the task they have, the advanced waypoints as in giving them priorities on what to attack and the plane (for example in the f-15E they cannot use certain weapons)... So I would need to have a little more info to try to help you more.

F18s, bombing runs. JDAM, Iron, and JSOW. I create the objective in the map waypoint, with instructions to drop one munition on each set target. Guided bomb, number released 1, altitude above such 20k, ect. They all originally worked when the missions were created. Same as I would for AI flights. Now I have to be on top of them to have any hope of them doing it, and they'll attack only one target and leave off the rest and go home.

Set as an AI flight, it works fine. But not as a wingman command.

Edited May 2 by icecold951

[Aoi Kaze]

Easiest way is for you to upload the file. Do you have some advanced waypoints of ROE? In my experience, the number of bombs and so doesn't work very well. But if the same mission worked before and now it doesn't... it's difficult.

[icecold951]

These are modified versions of the missions, for brevity. The only change was air start, closer to the target. Now maddeningly mission 2 is behaving correctly. At least the edited mission, I changed nothing but air start. But yesterday the wingman just refused to drop his bombs. I just told him to air dump and go home.

Mission one, a JSOW mission, still shows the issue. Just flies home. I've tried modifying it with the generic ASM missiles as the attack, ATG, and even as bombs. I've seen this issue consistently across many missions. I'd have to hunt to find one that drops only one bomb.

2.miz 1.miz

[Exorcet]

11 minutes ago, icecold951 said:

These are modified versions of the missions, for brevity. The only change was air start, closer to the target. Now maddeningly mission 2 is behaving correctly. At least the edited mission, I changed nothing but air start.

It might be a fuel issue then. If the AI uses too much fuel they refuse to start attacks.

[icecold951]

15 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

It might be a fuel issue then. If the AI uses too much fuel they refuse to start attacks.

I can test it, by changing the ROE setting for it, or moving the start WP farther away like back to the carrier. I'll try that tomorrow.

But I always ensure plenty of fuel. In the JDAM attack the AI had three external tanks. And a high altitude JDAM or JSOW attack hardly needs extra fuel. No dive to low altitude and climb back up. Just drop drop drop.

[Aoi Kaze]

17 hours ago, icecold951 said:

These are modified versions of the missions, for brevity. The only change was air start, closer to the target. Now maddeningly mission 2 is behaving correctly. At least the edited mission, I changed nothing but air start. But yesterday the wingman just refused to drop his bombs. I just told him to air dump and go home.

Mission one, a JSOW mission, still shows the issue. Just flies home. I've tried modifying it with the generic ASM missiles as the attack, ATG, and even as bombs. I've seen this issue consistently across many missions. I'd have to hunt to find one that drops only one bomb.

2.miz 582.97 kB · 1 download 1.miz 638.54 kB · 4 downloads

Ok, here's what I saw:
You basically put them in every difficulty possible. I don't have the f-18, so I'm no expert in the subject but,

1.-The distance is huge for f-18s with a single bag of fuel, specially if they have to fight their way around with bandits

2.- They don't have TGPs, specially for long distance missiles as the jsows

3.- The weather conditions are suboptimal for those weapons, basically they have to drop down close to the AAA, so first shorad missile or bullet they fire, they just turned back home, even with the AI avoid decissions override on.

4.- One of the groups didn't even have evade fire, probably because of the earlier point, but if they die, they can't attack.

5.- They even have fighters to fight, missiles, triple AAA... I think that's just simply too much for the AI, In my missions they die or flee with fewer problems.

6.- Finally, one of the gorups have a carpet bombing advanced waypoint. I maybe wrong but I think this is for bombers like the B-52. The other had 4 different targets in one single point.

SO

1.- I changed the waypoint positions because I don't have hours to see them go by and back to the point.

2.-I set them with fuel unlimited to watch their behaviour.

3.- gave them TGPs (took out the bandits too, since i wanted them to bomb)

4.- Changed their AWPTs from carpet bombing in one group (I'm not sure about this, because I never used that succesfully with a fighter before, only bombers, but even if it worked, they barely have room to follow a course between the triple A and the clouds, and they are just dumb bombs, so they supossedly need to see the targets),to "bombing", and form "bombing" to "attack map object" with the JSOWs. This didn't work, but the mark83s bombs, they sucessfully drop their bombs in the correct places.

5.- JSOW guys didn't attack, they got close to the area, dodged some missiles and went back, so  I tried a couple of different things. Put bombing again, placed their attack orders in different waypoints (this definitely helps), but they still didn't attack. Finally I thought that, even if they can attack with JSOWs (which I don't know, since I don't have the f-18, but I know the AIs in different planes have different livery limitations), the weather conditions made it almost impossible to attack properly, so I changed the payload for some JDAMS just to try and they attack. So I think it's a problem of the weapon, the weather or a combination of both, but now both groups attack their targets.

Humans can do a lot of stuff AI can't, so I guess as a player you can play this mission with success (tough one though), but the AI is always looking fon an excuse to not deliver. Literally.

Hope this can help.

Edited May 3 by Aoi Kaze

[Exorcet]

I looked at mission 1 and it worked for me, though I noticed there is an attack WP for the player flight and the AI will fly over this if told to engage mission. You might want to put a switch waypoint command before it so the AI doesn't overfly air defenses unnecessarily.

[icecold951]

New information. First, I tried unlimited fuel. Nice. Didn't know that existed. Doesn't affect the player, but solves the long time issue of poor fuel management by AI. Unfortunately, that didn't help.

What I have learned is it is somehow tied to air start vs ground start. If I take off from the carrier, it just won't work. But if I air start, they'll obey the mission instructions. Even starting in the air just over the carrier at 5k feet. I'll test lower altitudes. But something about air start seems to make the problem go away.

[Pizzicato]

@Aoi Kaze Since icecold can't be bothered, I'll say thanks instead. It's great see people in the community taking the time and effort to look into other folk's issues and try to help solve them.

[icecold951]

45 minutes ago, Pizzicato said:

@Aoi Kaze Since icecold can't be bothered, I'll say thanks instead. It's great see people in the community taking the time and effort to look into other folk's issues and try to help solve them.

Still investigating it, but okay. Thanks guys. More information. If I move the carrier real close, it seems more cooperative. So I am guessing there is a fuel constraint. Why it is so extreme, I don't know. We're over the target with the wingman at over 10k lbs of fuel. Using AI infinite fuel, along with RTB on bingo off, I did manage to get the JDAM mission to work at a distance. I also had to be right on the release WP 2 before he'd attack.

It is still a lot more cooperative with air starts. Even low altitude ones over the carrier.

8 hours ago, Exorcet said:

I looked at mission 1 and it worked for me, though I noticed there is an attack WP for the player flight and the AI will fly over this if told to engage mission. You might want to put a switch waypoint command before it so the AI doesn't overfly air defenses unnecessarily.

Actually that was my earliest efforts to get the wingman to attack. It seemed you had to release right over the target area to get any cooperation. And that is a poor way to use JSOWs. Thanks though. Tomorrow I want to try resaving it as a new file, instead of an update to the existing miz file. Maybe something with the older file has some affect on the mission. Mostly concentrating on the JDAM mission first, since I am getting some limited success with it.

[Aoi Kaze]

1 hour ago, Pizzicato said:

@Aoi Kaze Since icecold can't be bothered, I'll say thanks instead. It's great see people in the community taking the time and effort to look into other folk's issues and try to help solve them.

Two days ago some guys were really helping me, so I guess this is what it is about. But thanks, man.

[icecold951]

9 minutes ago, Aoi Kaze said:

Two days ago some guys were really helping me, so I guess this is what it is about. But thanks, man.

Just did more testing. So far, at least for the JDAM mission, I have it working. If anyone asks, you do seem to have to be right on the release WP, I mean right on it. Like 1nm.

Thanks for mentioning infinite fuel. That may be helping big time. Also modified the same mission to drop the JSOWs instead, and it cooperated.

[icecold951]

More experimenting. This time with a bare bones mission, AI only. First flight, positioned F18s right on the WP1, drops eight JSOWs nice and easy.

Second mission, same, but included a long flight back to the carrier. Still worked fine, as they had full fuel tanks.

Third mission, air start at 26k over the carriers. Flew the the waypoint, then aborted mission. On the F10 map, you see the target designators as they attempt the attack and abort. Ironically they dive to the deck for the return to the boat, but that is AI.

Fourth mission. Same but turned on infinite fuel and turn off RTB on Bingo. They fly the distance and then drop the JSOWs.

Fifth mission. I took off infinite fuel, and added a tanker. They didn't care. They aborted and went for the tanker. Glitched out doing that too.

sixth mission. Added a refueling en-route. Flew to the tanker, got the fuel, made the attack run.

 

Conclusion. The issue is totally related to generous expectation of fuel for the return flight to the boat. Even knowing a tanker is waiting for them doesn't change their decision. Use of AI infinite fuel is a partial remedy. It still expects to see a lot of fuel for the return to the boat. This is despite that I am generally very cautious about not running to short on fuel.

Thanks guys for mentioning the infinite fuel. I didn't know that was a thing. And for suggesting it was fuel related.